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carlo ravelli is a world-renowned

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theoretical physicist and is one of the

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main developers of loop quantum gravity

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the main academic competitor to string

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theory click on the time stamp in the

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description if you'd like to skip this

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intro it's rare that i feel such a

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connection with someone from the get-go

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and i hope that you can feel the warmth

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of the relation between us as well today

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speaking of relations we cover the

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argument that relations are more

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fundamental than that which is being

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related we also cover the only two

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interpretations of quantum mechanics

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that are consistent at least according

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to carlo the nature of time and its

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ostensible arrow as well as how science

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supervenes on what's decidedly not

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scientific per se that is a largely

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philosophical conversation there's only

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been one book that i've consistently

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recommended on this channel and that is

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ian mcgill christ's master and his

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emissary and now i'm adding a second and

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that's carlo rivelli's order of time

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links to both of those will be in the

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description for those of you who are new

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to this channel my name is kurt

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jaimungle i'm a filmmaker with a

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background in mathematical physics

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dedicated to the explication of what are

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called theories of everything from a

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theoretical physics perspective but as

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well as delineating the possible

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connection consciousness has to the

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fundamental laws of nature provided

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these laws exist at all and are knowable

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to us if you enjoy witnessing and or

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engaging in real-time conversation with

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others on the topics of psychology

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neurobiology physics consciousness free

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will god and so on then do visit the

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discord and the subreddit the links for

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those are in the description there's

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also a link to the patreon in the

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description that is patreon.com

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kurt jaimungle as the patrons and the

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sponsors are the only reason i'm able to

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do this full time it would be near

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impossible for me to have conversations

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like this with any fidelity with any

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depth on topics like consciousness loop

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quantum gravity geometric unity that's

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coming up string theory non-neural

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bioelectric manipulation and so on if

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not for the patrons and the sponsors

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thank you and again that link is

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patreon.com kirchheim uncle speaking of

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sponsors there are two the first sponsor

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hussein who's been a huge supporter of

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this podcast since near its inception

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now omdat has a podcast on ai in

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consciousness and if you'd like to

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support this channel that is the tow

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channel then please visit the

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description and support his channel as

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doing so supports this indirectly the

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second sponsor is brilliant brilliance

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illuminates the soul of mathematics

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bite-sized interactive learning

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the laws that shape our world it

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elevates math and science from something

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to be feared to a delightful experience

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of guided discovery you can even learn

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group theory which is what's being

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referenced when you hear that the

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standard model is contingent on u1 cross

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su-2 cross su-3 those are technically

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called lead groups and those are local

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symmetries visit brilliant.org toe that

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is t-o-e and i think you'll be greatly

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surprised at the ease at which you can

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comprehend subjects you had previously

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had a difficult time grocking don't stop

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before four lessons thank you and enjoy

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this curiously metaphysical conversation

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with carlo revelli yeah when you asked

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me i looked i i decided to watch one

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and then i said i liked it oh thank you

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my physicist i knew i think but i

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appreciate the

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the width of your the the

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um of your questions and uh

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and the fact that you went uh very

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detailed but you know

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a good uh

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uh

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um

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uh middle ground so you you seem to know

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what you were talking about yeah i seem

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to i'm great at pretending

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so professor why don't you explain your

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relational view your interpretation of

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quantum mechanics

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uh wonderful thank you kurt for for

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having me here uh first of all please

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don't call me professor everybody calls

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me carlo and that's how i feel

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comfortable with

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right so relational quantum mechanics is

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um the way i think

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it's

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understand quantum mechanics there are

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as you know kurt there are a number of

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uh interpretations of quantum mechanics

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out there

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i find them all interesting um i think

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that none of them it's wrong um i think

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they're all each one

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is right

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but each one has a cost a price to pay

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and the question is uh are we ready to

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pay this price is it useful to pay this

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price to to go ahead and better

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understand the world

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and uh

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i think the the relation quantum

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mechanics which i'm gonna describe in a

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moment uh uh also have a price like

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everything

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a philosophical price okay

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uh but i think it's the best price to

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pace if we if we buy that then we

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understand the world better

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um

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the

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can be expressed in different manners um

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one way of of of presenting it is that

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what the what the theory gives us

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is what we see when we look when we see

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when we measure it give predictions for

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measurement

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uh and that's the way it's it's uh it's

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formulated in in textbooks uh

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the textbook quantum mechanic talks

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about the observer we talk about the

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measurement apparatus they talk about uh

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um

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about the outcome of the

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of the measurement

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now

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uh this is okay if you want to use it in

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fact a lot of people use quantum

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mechanics in these terms and uh very

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happy period there's no no question

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after that but of course it's not okay

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uh if we

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after we've realized quantum mechanics

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100 years old after we've realized that

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uh uh quantum mechanics is actually the

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best thing we have for everything for

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galaxies for star for for

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structure formation in the universe for

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what happened inside the sun

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so it's it's how we want to think about

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the world

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at the

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most fundamental physical level that we

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have access today

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and then

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what the hell is an apparatus

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and an observer doing into that there

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are no observers in the sun or or in the

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early universe when star formed

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so something is missing obviously in the

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standard textbook presentation of

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quantum mechanics which is who is

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observed uh what what is a major what is

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a measurement

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and one way of saying that is that uh in

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the in the in the standard presentation

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of quantum mechanics there are two

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postulates two assumptions

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which appear to be contradictory to one

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another one is that um if you don't look

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you have a quantum system it evolves in

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a way uh which is described by the

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schrodinger equation or by unitary

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evolution

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things change

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if you look there is a different

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postulate which is a projection

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postulate that says that the state does

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not evolve schrodinger evolution but it

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just jumps

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um and the visual way of viewing this is

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that

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a particle uh like an electron is

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described like a wave

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that satisfies the schrading equations a

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wave diffuses in space when you look at

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it you see in a point so the wave

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collapses in a point

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and when does it collapses when there's

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a measurement

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and a parameters

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uh measure it

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but

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there are no observers a parata inside

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the sun no observer apparata inside the

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distant galaxy or

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in all the cases we use quantum

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mechanics so that's the problem

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and

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there are

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many solutions on the table um some

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people think that uh you know

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it's always waves so the particle never

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goes to a point and the

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reality will happen is that we are self

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waves and we split in many different

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copies of ourselves this is many world

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interpretation

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and others

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now the relational

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and i'll finally come to you to your

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question the relational interpretation

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is idea that we can make sense of that

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by simply thinking

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that what happens between the particle

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and the observer

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the particle and the measurement parata

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is generic and it's not because of

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special property of the server or the

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measuring apparatus just what happened

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between any

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system and any other system in the

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universe

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so every time two systems we describe

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the world uh by splitting it in systems

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physical systems like the sun like a

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particle the molecule

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uh the earth uh you me these are all

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systems

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from the perspective of physicists

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every time two of these interact so

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exchange something

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uh

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one so to say measure the other

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so if this is a particle

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when it interact with me the particle

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collapses in a point has a position

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okay

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but

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this is not true

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this is only true the positive particles

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of pollution only with respect to this

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system not with respect to the rest of

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the universe

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it's uh uh

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it's uh it's later interacting with a

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particle and this observer here

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doesn't have to take into account this

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collapse

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evolution are always both true

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good postulate for describing what

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happened

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in the universe you just refer

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to different

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systems

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the ones which are directly interacting

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what is relevant is a projector

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postulate the ones which are not

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involved interacting which still

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may have an interesting of you know

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00:10:22,630 --> 00:10:20,320
computing what's going to happen next in

288
00:10:23,509 --> 00:10:22,640
the interaction to them

289
00:10:25,030 --> 00:10:23,519
um

290
00:10:27,190 --> 00:10:25,040
for them is relevant to unitary

291
00:10:27,910 --> 00:10:27,200
evolution postulate

292
00:10:28,790 --> 00:10:27,920
so

293
00:10:31,590 --> 00:10:28,800
the

294
00:10:33,350 --> 00:10:31,600
this is it i mean this solves completely

295
00:10:34,870 --> 00:10:33,360
the quantum mechanical problems because

296
00:10:37,110 --> 00:10:34,880
uh

297
00:10:38,550 --> 00:10:37,120
now we know what is a what is a system

298
00:10:40,230 --> 00:10:38,560
and now what is an observer nothing

299
00:10:42,630 --> 00:10:40,240
special all systems are

300
00:10:44,550 --> 00:10:42,640
systems all system observable

301
00:10:47,269 --> 00:10:44,560
and now we know when to use one poster

302
00:10:50,069 --> 00:10:47,279
than the other

303
00:10:51,670 --> 00:10:50,079
the price to pay is that the practical

304
00:10:53,829 --> 00:10:51,680
being in a position

305
00:10:55,750 --> 00:10:53,839
it's only relative to the system it has

306
00:10:57,110 --> 00:10:55,760
interacted with not relevant to

307
00:10:59,190 --> 00:10:57,120
something else with respect to something

308
00:11:01,110 --> 00:10:59,200
else is still spread around still a wave

309
00:11:01,910 --> 00:11:01,120
everywhere

310
00:11:04,550 --> 00:11:01,920
so

311
00:11:07,430 --> 00:11:04,560
all the variable taken values always

312
00:11:08,710 --> 00:11:07,440
relative relative to a system

313
00:11:10,790 --> 00:11:08,720
so this means

314
00:11:13,350 --> 00:11:10,800
that when we describe the world

315
00:11:15,829 --> 00:11:13,360
uh we describe the world

316
00:11:17,910 --> 00:11:15,839
giving values to variable i means

317
00:11:19,350 --> 00:11:17,920
microphone is here that color on the

318
00:11:22,389 --> 00:11:19,360
screen is red

319
00:11:24,310 --> 00:11:22,399
you know the sun is there these are all

320
00:11:26,310 --> 00:11:24,320
variables that

321
00:11:28,150 --> 00:11:26,320
values the variables take

322
00:11:29,990 --> 00:11:28,160
the color the position

323
00:11:32,550 --> 00:11:30,000
etc

324
00:11:34,389 --> 00:11:32,560
these if you if you buy the relational

325
00:11:36,310 --> 00:11:34,399
interpretation of quantum mechanics they

326
00:11:38,069 --> 00:11:36,320
are not absolute

327
00:11:39,670 --> 00:11:38,079
properties of a system

328
00:11:42,389 --> 00:11:39,680
they are properly the system respect to

329
00:11:43,750 --> 00:11:42,399
me or with respect to this chair not me

330
00:11:46,150 --> 00:11:43,760
as a human being

331
00:11:48,470 --> 00:11:46,160
me as a physical system

332
00:11:49,990 --> 00:11:48,480
so that's a religion relational because

333
00:11:52,710 --> 00:11:50,000
uh

334
00:11:54,550 --> 00:11:52,720
the suggestion here is don't think

335
00:11:55,350 --> 00:11:54,560
at reality

336
00:11:57,670 --> 00:11:55,360
as

337
00:11:58,629 --> 00:11:57,680
systems with properties

338
00:12:00,230 --> 00:11:58,639
rather

339
00:12:02,150 --> 00:12:00,240
think of reality

340
00:12:03,750 --> 00:12:02,160
as a system that

341
00:12:05,509 --> 00:12:03,760
have properties where they interact with

342
00:12:08,069 --> 00:12:05,519
something else only when they interact

343
00:12:10,389 --> 00:12:08,079
with something else and relatively to

344
00:12:12,710 --> 00:12:10,399
this something else

345
00:12:14,310 --> 00:12:12,720
that's a solution a possible solution of

346
00:12:15,670 --> 00:12:14,320
the quantum mechanic

347
00:12:16,470 --> 00:12:15,680
puzzle

348
00:12:19,030 --> 00:12:16,480
um

349
00:12:19,910 --> 00:12:19,040
the cost of this is accepting

350
00:12:22,629 --> 00:12:19,920
uh

351
00:12:24,870 --> 00:12:22,639
this weakened realism so to say the

352
00:12:25,990 --> 00:12:24,880
world is not made by a substance with

353
00:12:29,430 --> 00:12:26,000
properties

354
00:12:30,949 --> 00:12:29,440
it's made by interacting pieces

355
00:12:33,350 --> 00:12:30,959
and the pieces have properties only with

356
00:12:35,190 --> 00:12:33,360
interact

357
00:12:37,350 --> 00:12:35,200
okay so firstly let's remove the word

358
00:12:39,910 --> 00:12:37,360
observer and say interaction because

359
00:12:41,910 --> 00:12:39,920
observer seems to imply in people's mind

360
00:12:43,430 --> 00:12:41,920
a human being essentially or something

361
00:12:45,190 --> 00:12:43,440
conscious

362
00:12:47,030 --> 00:12:45,200
okay exactly

363
00:12:48,949 --> 00:12:47,040
so there's that and then

364
00:12:50,470 --> 00:12:48,959
what i'm wondering is let's say so i

365
00:12:51,509 --> 00:12:50,480
have a bedroom here and i don't know

366
00:12:52,949 --> 00:12:51,519
what's going on pretend it's much

367
00:12:54,710 --> 00:12:52,959
farther away and i haven't interacted

368
00:12:56,470 --> 00:12:54,720
with it so something's going on in that

369
00:12:58,310 --> 00:12:56,480
bedroom now to those people who are

370
00:12:59,509 --> 00:12:58,320
interacting in this bedroom right now

371
00:13:02,949 --> 00:12:59,519
they're

372
00:13:05,430 --> 00:13:02,959
they've collapsed their wave function in

373
00:13:06,790 --> 00:13:05,440
a sense okay that's good is there and

374
00:13:08,150 --> 00:13:06,800
let's say they've come up with some

375
00:13:09,509 --> 00:13:08,160
value and that says

376
00:13:11,829 --> 00:13:09,519
it could be a or b and they've come up

377
00:13:13,990 --> 00:13:11,839
with value a for some like the heads

378
00:13:15,910 --> 00:13:14,000
heads on a coin now is there a reason

379
00:13:17,990 --> 00:13:15,920
that necessarily if i was to interact

380
00:13:20,870 --> 00:13:18,000
with them that it consistently comes up

381
00:13:25,509 --> 00:13:20,880
with the same answer

382
00:13:28,550 --> 00:13:27,509
um

383
00:13:30,389 --> 00:13:28,560
good

384
00:13:31,910 --> 00:13:30,399
uh

385
00:13:36,949 --> 00:13:31,920
yes

386
00:13:41,350 --> 00:13:38,710
but but one has

387
00:13:42,790 --> 00:13:41,360
has to be careful in in formulating

388
00:13:43,990 --> 00:13:42,800
things properly

389
00:13:45,030 --> 00:13:44,000
properly

390
00:13:46,310 --> 00:13:45,040
namely

391
00:13:49,509 --> 00:13:46,320
um

392
00:13:52,230 --> 00:13:49,519
if you uh

393
00:13:52,949 --> 00:13:52,240
let's see exactly what what it means

394
00:13:55,189 --> 00:13:52,959
uh

395
00:13:58,069 --> 00:13:55,199
suppose you yourself measure that

396
00:14:00,949 --> 00:13:58,079
property and and you found a

397
00:14:05,110 --> 00:14:00,959
and then you interact with them

398
00:14:06,470 --> 00:14:05,120
and ask them hey what have you seen

399
00:14:09,509 --> 00:14:06,480
then for sure

400
00:14:10,949 --> 00:14:09,519
you would get something consistent

401
00:14:13,430 --> 00:14:10,959
uh

402
00:14:15,430 --> 00:14:13,440
this is the precise meaning of

403
00:14:17,590 --> 00:14:15,440
seeing the same thing

404
00:14:19,509 --> 00:14:17,600
in other words

405
00:14:23,430 --> 00:14:19,519
you can compare what

406
00:14:26,389 --> 00:14:23,440
what you have seen and what the the

407
00:14:27,509 --> 00:14:26,399
the people in the room have

408
00:14:30,150 --> 00:14:27,519
seen

409
00:14:33,509 --> 00:14:30,160
by talking to them or by asking them or

410
00:14:37,670 --> 00:14:36,389
but this interaction is quite mechanical

411
00:14:39,750 --> 00:14:37,680
so

412
00:14:41,350 --> 00:14:39,760
this interaction is

413
00:14:43,670 --> 00:14:41,360
itself a physical interaction not

414
00:14:45,670 --> 00:14:43,680
outside physics you cannot out go

415
00:14:47,670 --> 00:14:45,680
outside the world and somehow

416
00:14:49,750 --> 00:14:47,680
uh

417
00:14:51,750 --> 00:14:49,760
cheat physics circumvent and say oh

418
00:14:53,509 --> 00:14:51,760
physics is not looking let me ask you

419
00:14:54,870 --> 00:14:53,519
what you've seen that's you cannot do

420
00:14:56,389 --> 00:14:54,880
that's the point

421
00:14:59,030 --> 00:14:56,399
so um

422
00:15:01,189 --> 00:14:59,040
yes there is consistency and why i am so

423
00:15:03,269 --> 00:15:01,199
careful in saying that

424
00:15:05,269 --> 00:15:03,279
because uh quantum mechanics is tricky

425
00:15:06,550 --> 00:15:05,279
as you know if you measure the position

426
00:15:09,670 --> 00:15:06,560
of a particle then they measure the

427
00:15:11,509 --> 00:15:09,680
momentum you destroy

428
00:15:13,430 --> 00:15:11,519
the information about the position

429
00:15:15,750 --> 00:15:13,440
immediately after you measure the

430
00:15:17,590 --> 00:15:15,760
position again it's not the previous one

431
00:15:19,590 --> 00:15:17,600
so but measure the momentum the position

432
00:15:21,350 --> 00:15:19,600
is affected

433
00:15:23,590 --> 00:15:21,360
so you have to be careful because if you

434
00:15:25,829 --> 00:15:23,600
ask these people a question which is

435
00:15:28,550 --> 00:15:25,839
like the momentum toward the position

436
00:15:29,509 --> 00:15:28,560
you might be destroying

437
00:15:30,310 --> 00:15:29,519
uh

438
00:15:33,430 --> 00:15:30,320
some

439
00:15:37,189 --> 00:15:34,949
of the properties

440
00:15:39,509 --> 00:15:37,199
and it might be

441
00:15:43,030 --> 00:15:39,519
therefore

442
00:15:44,470 --> 00:15:43,040
neither true nor false that the value

443
00:15:45,990 --> 00:15:44,480
is a

444
00:15:48,069 --> 00:15:46,000
like when you

445
00:15:49,430 --> 00:15:48,079
when you do a double slit interference

446
00:15:51,030 --> 00:15:49,440
if you measure the interference you

447
00:15:52,870 --> 00:15:51,040
cannot ask anymore which way the

448
00:15:55,269 --> 00:15:52,880
particle has gone through which slip the

449
00:15:56,629 --> 00:15:55,279
particle has gone to so by asking when

450
00:15:57,749 --> 00:15:56,639
there is no answer to the one to the

451
00:15:59,829 --> 00:15:57,759
other one

452
00:16:01,189 --> 00:15:59,839
so

453
00:16:03,430 --> 00:16:01,199
the point is that when you when you

454
00:16:05,269 --> 00:16:03,440
compare what two different observables

455
00:16:07,509 --> 00:16:05,279
have seen you have to be careful that

456
00:16:11,910 --> 00:16:07,519
there are these interference effects

457
00:16:15,829 --> 00:16:12,550
a

458
00:16:21,189 --> 00:16:18,230
my in my block the possibility of

459
00:16:24,310 --> 00:16:21,199
identifying exactly what what the two

460
00:16:25,430 --> 00:16:24,320
have seen so as long as you keep asking

461
00:16:26,310 --> 00:16:25,440
questions

462
00:16:28,230 --> 00:16:26,320
uh

463
00:16:29,910 --> 00:16:28,240
which are not like position moment that

464
00:16:31,590 --> 00:16:29,920
don't destroy previous information

465
00:16:36,949 --> 00:16:31,600
everything is consistent every observer

466
00:16:40,150 --> 00:16:38,790
with regard to these relations i've

467
00:16:41,910 --> 00:16:40,160
heard you say quite a few times

468
00:16:45,350 --> 00:16:41,920
relations are what are more fundamental

469
00:16:47,509 --> 00:16:45,360
than the things itself

470
00:16:49,110 --> 00:16:47,519
however to me as i'm having a difficult

471
00:16:51,910 --> 00:16:49,120
time understanding that because to me a

472
00:16:54,230 --> 00:16:51,920
relation presupposes things you can't

473
00:16:55,829 --> 00:16:54,240
have a relation without having things to

474
00:16:58,150 --> 00:16:55,839
have a relationship with unless you have

475
00:17:00,550 --> 00:16:58,160
a relation between relations and then it

476
00:17:02,230 --> 00:17:00,560
just keeps occurring infinitely

477
00:17:07,189 --> 00:17:02,240
so

478
00:17:09,110 --> 00:17:07,199
relationships as fundamental

479
00:17:10,949 --> 00:17:09,120
see even mathematically the way that i'm

480
00:17:12,549 --> 00:17:10,959
thinking about this right now in model

481
00:17:13,909 --> 00:17:12,559
theory you have a signature and then

482
00:17:15,829 --> 00:17:13,919
relations

483
00:17:18,230 --> 00:17:15,839
you need an arity functions like how

484
00:17:19,990 --> 00:17:18,240
many are are going to be compared how

485
00:17:21,750 --> 00:17:20,000
and then what is being compared are i

486
00:17:25,590 --> 00:17:21,760
would call the things

487
00:17:29,190 --> 00:17:25,600
and then the relation needs those things

488
00:17:31,909 --> 00:17:29,200
so help someone as confused as myself

489
00:17:33,750 --> 00:17:31,919
understand what is meant by relations

490
00:17:35,590 --> 00:17:33,760
are more fundamental than the things how

491
00:17:38,070 --> 00:17:35,600
is it not presupposing

492
00:17:39,669 --> 00:17:38,080
things per se

493
00:17:41,590 --> 00:17:39,679
yeah well it depends what we mean by

494
00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:41,600
thing uh that's uh that's the subtlety

495
00:17:44,830 --> 00:17:43,650
namely um if

496
00:17:46,950 --> 00:17:44,840
[Music]

497
00:17:48,789 --> 00:17:46,960
uh we we're talking about quantum

498
00:17:51,270 --> 00:17:48,799
mechanics so you're not talking about

499
00:17:53,270 --> 00:17:51,280
general philosophical view of what so i

500
00:17:54,549 --> 00:17:53,280
i'm i'm just saying what this

501
00:17:56,470 --> 00:17:54,559
interpretation quantum mechanics

502
00:17:57,430 --> 00:17:56,480
requires us to do

503
00:17:59,669 --> 00:17:57,440
all right

504
00:18:01,270 --> 00:17:59,679
so in this individual quantum mechanics

505
00:18:02,070 --> 00:18:01,280
the basic notions

506
00:18:02,870 --> 00:18:02,080
are

507
00:18:04,710 --> 00:18:02,880
a

508
00:18:07,909 --> 00:18:04,720
system

509
00:18:09,110 --> 00:18:07,919
okay so i'm not

510
00:18:10,390 --> 00:18:09,120
denying

511
00:18:12,070 --> 00:18:10,400
it it's not an interpretation that

512
00:18:14,549 --> 00:18:12,080
denies that we describe the world in

513
00:18:16,950 --> 00:18:14,559
terms of systems okay if you want to

514
00:18:18,870 --> 00:18:16,960
call a system a thing that's fine those

515
00:18:20,390 --> 00:18:18,880
are things okay

516
00:18:23,190 --> 00:18:20,400
this is a system

517
00:18:25,430 --> 00:18:23,200
a pencil okay

518
00:18:27,190 --> 00:18:25,440
and then the relation of between systems

519
00:18:28,549 --> 00:18:27,200
the things that happen between systems

520
00:18:32,230 --> 00:18:28,559
in which a

521
00:18:35,029 --> 00:18:32,240
pension has a color with respect to me

522
00:18:37,750 --> 00:18:35,039
now why is a relation

523
00:18:40,070 --> 00:18:37,760
because this this

524
00:18:42,070 --> 00:18:40,080
this pen is is yellow

525
00:18:43,669 --> 00:18:42,080
but what does it exactly mean that is

526
00:18:46,150 --> 00:18:43,679
yellow yellow is not a property of the

527
00:18:47,750 --> 00:18:46,160
pen by itself it's a property of the of

528
00:18:49,350 --> 00:18:47,760
the pen that depends on the light that

529
00:18:53,830 --> 00:18:49,360
bounces it the interaction with the

530
00:18:56,630 --> 00:18:53,840
light and the the the peculiar uh uh

531
00:18:59,270 --> 00:18:56,640
uh detectors in my eyes

532
00:19:00,870 --> 00:18:59,280
uh which do not distinguish many

533
00:19:03,750 --> 00:19:00,880
frequencies but do distinguish some

534
00:19:05,430 --> 00:19:03,760
frequency and so in terms of this

535
00:19:07,430 --> 00:19:05,440
space of colors which is not outside in

536
00:19:08,870 --> 00:19:07,440
the world is in my head

537
00:19:12,470 --> 00:19:08,880
i call yellow

538
00:19:14,789 --> 00:19:12,480
uh the way this pencil interacts with

539
00:19:17,430 --> 00:19:14,799
the lighting with me

540
00:19:19,750 --> 00:19:17,440
so the being yellow of the of the pencil

541
00:19:21,590 --> 00:19:19,760
it's really something we only understand

542
00:19:23,110 --> 00:19:21,600
if we bring into the picture also the

543
00:19:24,630 --> 00:19:23,120
light and me and my brain and the

544
00:19:26,789 --> 00:19:24,640
specific

545
00:19:29,750 --> 00:19:26,799
three kind of detectors of light in my

546
00:19:31,990 --> 00:19:29,760
eyes and so on so forth good so this

547
00:19:35,750 --> 00:19:32,000
this is an example of a relation to be

548
00:19:37,350 --> 00:19:35,760
yellow is it's a relation sense

549
00:19:39,830 --> 00:19:37,360
now

550
00:19:42,390 --> 00:19:39,840
uh why i said well depend what you mean

551
00:19:44,710 --> 00:19:42,400
by a thing because if by a thing you

552
00:19:45,990 --> 00:19:44,720
mean a an entity with a set of

553
00:19:48,630 --> 00:19:46,000
properties

554
00:19:51,669 --> 00:19:48,640
okay this is a pen is here has zero

555
00:19:53,510 --> 00:19:51,679
velocities oriented up and down with

556
00:19:57,350 --> 00:19:53,520
with a point down

557
00:20:00,310 --> 00:19:57,360
uh uh it's a certain thickness and uh a

558
00:20:01,909 --> 00:20:00,320
certain mass a certain weight and uh um

559
00:20:04,310 --> 00:20:01,919
and a certain position so on and so

560
00:20:10,549 --> 00:20:07,029
if by thing you mean this system with a

561
00:20:13,029 --> 00:20:10,559
given set of properties that it has

562
00:20:14,630 --> 00:20:13,039
then in relation quantum mechanics that

563
00:20:16,310 --> 00:20:14,640
is wrong

564
00:20:17,669 --> 00:20:16,320
because all these properties do not

565
00:20:19,990 --> 00:20:17,679
belong to the

566
00:20:22,710 --> 00:20:20,000
to the pen it belongs to the interaction

567
00:20:24,630 --> 00:20:22,720
depending on whatever it's outside

568
00:20:26,710 --> 00:20:24,640
so in relation quantum mechanics they're

569
00:20:29,669 --> 00:20:26,720
systems and and uh

570
00:20:31,909 --> 00:20:29,679
and and and relation to a system

571
00:20:33,350 --> 00:20:31,919
the properties of a system are all the

572
00:20:35,190 --> 00:20:33,360
relations

573
00:20:37,990 --> 00:20:35,200
but what we when we describe the world

574
00:20:39,750 --> 00:20:38,000
we're talking about the properties

575
00:20:41,830 --> 00:20:39,760
not talking about the systems

576
00:20:44,230 --> 00:20:41,840
we are saying well the moon is there a

577
00:20:47,190 --> 00:20:44,240
position the position is relational with

578
00:20:50,149 --> 00:20:47,200
respect to something else

579
00:20:51,830 --> 00:20:50,159
all properties are relation in in

580
00:20:56,149 --> 00:20:51,840
in quantum mechanics

581
00:21:00,230 --> 00:20:56,159
so it's not that uh the only relations

582
00:21:03,110 --> 00:21:00,240
in relation quantum mechanics is that uh

583
00:21:04,470 --> 00:21:03,120
systems have no properties unless

584
00:21:05,990 --> 00:21:04,480
uh relation

585
00:21:08,310 --> 00:21:06,000
except relational properties are not

586
00:21:11,430 --> 00:21:08,320
properties by themselves

587
00:21:14,149 --> 00:21:11,440
having said yes one is tempted

588
00:21:17,190 --> 00:21:14,159
uh and and many philosophers want to do

589
00:21:19,669 --> 00:21:17,200
that and i have some sympathy for them

590
00:21:21,990 --> 00:21:19,679
to make one step further

591
00:21:24,950 --> 00:21:22,000
uh michelle bit bald is a good example

592
00:21:26,470 --> 00:21:24,960
that his immediate reaction to a

593
00:21:28,549 --> 00:21:26,480
racial quantum mechanic said well why

594
00:21:30,630 --> 00:21:28,559
don't you take one step further

595
00:21:33,909 --> 00:21:30,640
and say well for forget the system the

596
00:21:37,029 --> 00:21:33,919
systems are just the

597
00:21:39,750 --> 00:21:37,039
uh intersections so to say

598
00:21:42,070 --> 00:21:39,760
between between relations

599
00:21:43,510 --> 00:21:42,080
and you say this is hard for you to

600
00:21:45,590 --> 00:21:43,520
conceive because it's a relation

601
00:21:47,350 --> 00:21:45,600
required to think that's true

602
00:21:48,710 --> 00:21:47,360
but uh

603
00:21:51,110 --> 00:21:48,720
you know

604
00:21:52,710 --> 00:21:51,120
think of a network a net a net of a

605
00:21:55,029 --> 00:21:52,720
fisherman

606
00:21:57,190 --> 00:21:55,039
you can say it's a set of nodes

607
00:21:58,470 --> 00:21:57,200
attached by little links

608
00:22:01,029 --> 00:21:58,480
fine

609
00:22:03,830 --> 00:22:01,039
but you can say it's just the links

610
00:22:06,149 --> 00:22:03,840
the notes come just as a peculiar point

611
00:22:12,310 --> 00:22:09,750
the links are attached to one another

612
00:22:13,909 --> 00:22:12,320
so uh it's the same with a graph more

613
00:22:15,750 --> 00:22:13,919
abstractly you can think of you can

614
00:22:17,510 --> 00:22:15,760
define a graph in two ways you can say

615
00:22:18,390 --> 00:22:17,520
it's a set of points

616
00:22:20,070 --> 00:22:18,400
and then

617
00:22:21,830 --> 00:22:20,080
relation between the point i mean there

618
00:22:24,230 --> 00:22:21,840
is a there is a link between two points

619
00:22:27,669 --> 00:22:24,240
that simulation or not

620
00:22:31,190 --> 00:22:27,679
or you can say it's a set of links

621
00:22:33,830 --> 00:22:31,200
and then you say who's who is

622
00:22:34,870 --> 00:22:33,840
which one of the link joined to the

623
00:22:36,470 --> 00:22:34,880
other

624
00:22:38,630 --> 00:22:36,480
so you can start from the point of start

625
00:22:41,830 --> 00:22:38,640
from the links to to think of a graph

626
00:22:43,350 --> 00:22:41,840
and so in that sense you might want to

627
00:22:46,470 --> 00:22:43,360
uh just

628
00:22:49,029 --> 00:22:46,480
view the systems as just nodes

629
00:22:51,110 --> 00:22:49,039
of networks after all

630
00:22:52,630 --> 00:22:51,120
uh we never see the moon we see its

631
00:22:55,669 --> 00:22:52,640
properties

632
00:22:58,710 --> 00:22:55,679
so our direct contact with the world is

633
00:23:01,430 --> 00:22:58,720
through uh the properties of this object

634
00:23:03,510 --> 00:23:01,440
from which we construct the object

635
00:23:06,310 --> 00:23:03,520
some philosophy might want to go

636
00:23:07,430 --> 00:23:06,320
all that way uh i have some sympathy but

637
00:23:09,270 --> 00:23:07,440
i don't think that the malaysia

638
00:23:11,350 --> 00:23:09,280
interpretation quantum mechanics uh

639
00:23:13,669 --> 00:23:11,360
requires that relation with the quantum

640
00:23:15,590 --> 00:23:13,679
mechanics in terms of systems

641
00:23:16,950 --> 00:23:15,600
and uh relational properties between the

642
00:23:19,270 --> 00:23:16,960
systems

643
00:23:21,830 --> 00:23:19,280
no okay so you said that we can describe

644
00:23:23,909 --> 00:23:21,840
a system or a system of that's a graph

645
00:23:25,909 --> 00:23:23,919
let's say in terms of treating the edges

646
00:23:28,149 --> 00:23:25,919
as primary or the vertices is primary

647
00:23:30,710 --> 00:23:28,159
and then you can infer correct okay so

648
00:23:32,230 --> 00:23:30,720
exactly is there a reason that

649
00:23:33,430 --> 00:23:32,240
it seems like

650
00:23:35,350 --> 00:23:33,440
because they're interchangeable you

651
00:23:36,789 --> 00:23:35,360
could place emphasis on anyone why is it

652
00:23:38,390 --> 00:23:36,799
that you're

653
00:23:40,549 --> 00:23:38,400
choosing or why is it that it's better

654
00:23:43,830 --> 00:23:40,559
to place emphasis on the relations

655
00:23:46,789 --> 00:23:43,840
rather than the notes the edges right

656
00:23:49,110 --> 00:23:46,799
i think we can do both

657
00:23:52,470 --> 00:23:49,120
i think i think both are doable as far

658
00:23:57,430 --> 00:23:52,480
as quantum mechanics is uh

659
00:24:17,669 --> 00:23:59,269
i

660
00:24:19,830 --> 00:24:17,679
non-property laden node

661
00:24:21,669 --> 00:24:19,840
because as soon as i can visualize i

662
00:24:23,750 --> 00:24:21,679
feel like i've assigned a property to it

663
00:24:26,390 --> 00:24:23,760
so what is meant by this

664
00:24:28,630 --> 00:24:26,400
what is meant by what's being related

665
00:24:32,070 --> 00:24:28,640
is it and is it physical what is meant

666
00:24:35,110 --> 00:24:32,080
by physicality like what the heck is it

667
00:24:37,350 --> 00:24:35,120
now also by the way you can answer as if

668
00:24:38,950 --> 00:24:37,360
it's the spin network like you i don't

669
00:24:40,070 --> 00:24:38,960
know is it that is that what you're

670
00:24:42,310 --> 00:24:40,080
ultimately claiming or is it something

671
00:24:44,630 --> 00:24:42,320
even more fundamental you're unsure of

672
00:24:47,430 --> 00:24:44,640
mathematically how it looks like

673
00:24:48,390 --> 00:24:47,440
take this question any way you like

674
00:24:49,350 --> 00:24:48,400
uh

675
00:24:51,510 --> 00:24:49,360
well

676
00:24:52,950 --> 00:24:51,520
thanks for bringing up the spin networks

677
00:24:55,269 --> 00:24:52,960
um

678
00:24:57,190 --> 00:24:55,279
no i think one

679
00:24:58,870 --> 00:24:57,200
one thing is interpretation of quantum

680
00:25:00,390 --> 00:24:58,880
mechanics

681
00:25:01,669 --> 00:25:00,400
and and the difference the spin net will

682
00:25:03,669 --> 00:25:01,679
come from a different story which is

683
00:25:05,510 --> 00:25:03,679
quantum gravity

684
00:25:07,190 --> 00:25:05,520
uh now

685
00:25:08,630 --> 00:25:07,200
uh let's say on the interpretation

686
00:25:10,630 --> 00:25:08,640
quantum mechanics which is what you're

687
00:25:13,510 --> 00:25:10,640
asking about uh

688
00:25:15,830 --> 00:25:13,520
is one important point quantum mechanics

689
00:25:17,510 --> 00:25:15,840
is not a theory about the world it's a

690
00:25:18,870 --> 00:25:17,520
collection of theories about the world

691
00:25:20,549 --> 00:25:18,880
there is a quantum mechanics of a

692
00:25:22,230 --> 00:25:20,559
particle it's a quantum mechanic of the

693
00:25:23,990 --> 00:25:22,240
standard model there's a quantum

694
00:25:26,230 --> 00:25:24,000
mechanic of gravity which is quantum

695
00:25:28,070 --> 00:25:26,240
gravity uh you know there's a quantum

696
00:25:29,350 --> 00:25:28,080
mechanic of harmonic oscillator there's

697
00:25:31,269 --> 00:25:29,360
a quantum mechanic for the molecule

698
00:25:32,310 --> 00:25:31,279
there's a quantum mechanics of the early

699
00:25:35,590 --> 00:25:32,320
universe

700
00:25:37,669 --> 00:25:35,600
quantum mechanics of the of the of the

701
00:25:41,029 --> 00:25:37,679
what happens inside the sun

702
00:25:44,149 --> 00:25:41,039
so uh quantum mechanics is not a list

703
00:25:46,950 --> 00:25:44,159
of of things out there in the world

704
00:25:48,549 --> 00:25:46,960
uh to have a list of things out there in

705
00:25:51,350 --> 00:25:48,559
the world you should

706
00:25:53,830 --> 00:25:51,360
choose a particular quantum theory

707
00:25:55,990 --> 00:25:53,840
okay not quantitative in general but one

708
00:25:57,830 --> 00:25:56,000
particular platform so quantum mechanics

709
00:25:59,750 --> 00:25:57,840
says okay what is it quantum mechanics

710
00:26:01,350 --> 00:25:59,760
quantum mechanics says that any theory

711
00:26:03,350 --> 00:26:01,360
of the world okay

712
00:26:05,190 --> 00:26:03,360
can be formulated in this way there's a

713
00:26:07,190 --> 00:26:05,200
non-community variable maybe there's a

714
00:26:11,190 --> 00:26:07,200
hilbert space there's some mathematics

715
00:26:12,950 --> 00:26:11,200
of the structure of the mathematics

716
00:26:15,269 --> 00:26:12,960
then you have to say

717
00:26:16,870 --> 00:26:15,279
which variables which

718
00:26:17,909 --> 00:26:16,880
hamiltonian

719
00:26:22,390 --> 00:26:17,919
which

720
00:26:23,750 --> 00:26:22,400
things you describe in that sense um

721
00:26:26,789 --> 00:26:23,760
quantum mechanics is like classical

722
00:26:28,710 --> 00:26:26,799
mechanics classical mechanics is not

723
00:26:31,830 --> 00:26:28,720
a theory of particles

724
00:26:33,990 --> 00:26:31,840
it's theory of anything of a pendulum of

725
00:26:35,590 --> 00:26:34,000
particles of the electric field of

726
00:26:38,149 --> 00:26:35,600
whatever it's just

727
00:26:39,430 --> 00:26:38,159
then it's just a general framework

728
00:26:41,510 --> 00:26:39,440
within which

729
00:26:43,269 --> 00:26:41,520
then you have to specify your variables

730
00:26:44,070 --> 00:26:43,279
face space lagrangian liquidity or

731
00:26:45,190 --> 00:26:44,080
motion

732
00:26:46,070 --> 00:26:45,200
whatever

733
00:26:47,350 --> 00:26:46,080
all right

734
00:26:48,789 --> 00:26:47,360
so uh

735
00:26:51,110 --> 00:26:48,799
if you want to know

736
00:26:52,470 --> 00:26:51,120
how do we currently describe the world

737
00:26:54,710 --> 00:26:52,480
you shouldn't ask what does quantum

738
00:26:56,789 --> 00:26:54,720
mechanics say you should ask what is in

739
00:26:59,430 --> 00:26:56,799
the standard model what is the general

740
00:27:01,510 --> 00:26:59,440
relativity what are the ingredients

741
00:27:02,870 --> 00:27:01,520
of the worlds of the world

742
00:27:05,029 --> 00:27:02,880
so if i do

743
00:27:07,909 --> 00:27:05,039
let's take the simplest case if i do the

744
00:27:09,990 --> 00:27:07,919
quantum mechanic of a particle

745
00:27:11,990 --> 00:27:10,000
okay it's a schrodinger equation of a

746
00:27:13,110 --> 00:27:12,000
single particle

747
00:27:15,029 --> 00:27:13,120
uh

748
00:27:17,110 --> 00:27:15,039
how do i think the system

749
00:27:19,029 --> 00:27:17,120
well it's a particle

750
00:27:21,669 --> 00:27:19,039
it's just this particle and how do i

751
00:27:23,590 --> 00:27:21,679
visualize the system exactly the the

752
00:27:25,669 --> 00:27:23,600
classical way i visualize a particle

753
00:27:27,350 --> 00:27:25,679
there's a particle moving there and if i

754
00:27:30,230 --> 00:27:27,360
do an electromagnetic field i think the

755
00:27:31,830 --> 00:27:30,240
electromagnetic field or many photons

756
00:27:33,269 --> 00:27:31,840
and if i do the standard model i think

757
00:27:35,350 --> 00:27:33,279
all the complexity of the field for the

758
00:27:37,510 --> 00:27:35,360
standard model of the particles animal

759
00:27:38,950 --> 00:27:37,520
now the point is

760
00:27:40,389 --> 00:27:38,960
that let's say on the part of the

761
00:27:44,310 --> 00:27:40,399
particle

762
00:27:46,789 --> 00:27:44,320
okay but

763
00:27:49,590 --> 00:27:46,799
i have to remember that this

764
00:27:52,549 --> 00:27:49,600
entity this system the particle

765
00:27:54,230 --> 00:27:52,559
has a position here

766
00:27:57,669 --> 00:27:54,240
with respect to me in the moment is

767
00:28:00,230 --> 00:27:57,679
interacting with me i should not think

768
00:28:02,230 --> 00:28:00,240
that it always have a position

769
00:28:04,470 --> 00:28:02,240
the position is the way the particle

770
00:28:06,149 --> 00:28:04,480
interacts with me

771
00:28:08,789 --> 00:28:06,159
so if i interact with a particle and

772
00:28:10,389 --> 00:28:08,799
there's a wall with two two holes and i

773
00:28:12,710 --> 00:28:10,399
interact again with a particle the other

774
00:28:15,510 --> 00:28:12,720
side of the wall i should not think that

775
00:28:17,590 --> 00:28:15,520
the particle always had a position

776
00:28:19,190 --> 00:28:17,600
and therefore had to choose one hole or

777
00:28:20,710 --> 00:28:19,200
the other

778
00:28:23,350 --> 00:28:20,720
particle might pass through the two

779
00:28:25,990 --> 00:28:23,360
holes because it doesn't have a position

780
00:28:28,470 --> 00:28:26,000
while it's not interacting with me

781
00:28:29,909 --> 00:28:28,480
and when is interacting with me it has a

782
00:28:31,830 --> 00:28:29,919
position so that's it that's the

783
00:28:33,909 --> 00:28:31,840
particle that i see but in that

784
00:28:36,789 --> 00:28:33,919
particular moment not necessarily with

785
00:28:38,950 --> 00:28:36,799
respect to u has a position because with

786
00:28:41,510 --> 00:28:38,960
respect to u it's possible that b and

787
00:28:44,149 --> 00:28:41,520
the particle neither have a position

788
00:28:45,909 --> 00:28:44,159
okay in your description we're both in a

789
00:28:47,990 --> 00:28:45,919
quantum superposition of different

790
00:28:49,350 --> 00:28:48,000
branches of universe whatever

791
00:28:51,190 --> 00:28:49,360
okay so we're not supposed to think in

792
00:28:52,870 --> 00:28:51,200
terms of is or at least it's not useful

793
00:28:54,230 --> 00:28:52,880
i think in terms of relations but also

794
00:28:55,990 --> 00:28:54,240
at the same time i remember in your book

795
00:28:57,510 --> 00:28:56,000
you said nature is what it is

796
00:28:59,909 --> 00:28:57,520
so how am i supposed to make it it is

797
00:29:01,350 --> 00:28:59,919
nature is what it is but then let's not

798
00:29:02,549 --> 00:29:01,360
think in terms of is

799
00:29:04,710 --> 00:29:02,559
am i just taking that a bit too

800
00:29:06,630 --> 00:29:04,720
literally

801
00:29:09,190 --> 00:29:06,640
well it is

802
00:29:13,909 --> 00:29:09,200
do i say nature is what it is nature is

803
00:29:20,950 --> 00:29:14,870
i

804
00:29:22,070 --> 00:29:20,960
of

805
00:29:26,470 --> 00:29:22,080
confusing

806
00:29:30,149 --> 00:29:27,990
um

807
00:29:32,870 --> 00:29:30,159
let me make a simple example in special

808
00:29:34,549 --> 00:29:32,880
relativity or in galileo relativity

809
00:29:36,310 --> 00:29:34,559
we always say the position the velocity

810
00:29:37,269 --> 00:29:36,320
with respect to one observer

811
00:29:38,710 --> 00:29:37,279
okay

812
00:29:41,590 --> 00:29:38,720
um

813
00:29:43,669 --> 00:29:41,600
if i am on the train the velocity of

814
00:29:45,830 --> 00:29:43,679
something somebody sitting next to me is

815
00:29:47,269 --> 00:29:45,840
zero with respect to the observer me but

816
00:29:49,990 --> 00:29:47,279
if you're outside the train the velocity

817
00:29:52,230 --> 00:29:50,000
with respect to you to another observer

818
00:29:53,909 --> 00:29:52,240
is different now we use observer there

819
00:29:55,510 --> 00:29:53,919
but of course this is nothing to do with

820
00:29:56,710 --> 00:29:55,520
the fact that we're human beings we're

821
00:29:58,470 --> 00:29:56,720
thinking right you could say the

822
00:30:00,710 --> 00:29:58,480
velocity of respect to a lump

823
00:30:02,870 --> 00:30:00,720
or there was a respect to a table okay

824
00:30:04,789 --> 00:30:02,880
so a table can be an observer from this

825
00:30:06,950 --> 00:30:04,799
perspective so what we're only saying

826
00:30:08,470 --> 00:30:06,960
that velocity is a relative constant

827
00:30:10,389 --> 00:30:08,480
it's a relational concept it's not a

828
00:30:12,549 --> 00:30:10,399
property of an object it's a property of

829
00:30:13,830 --> 00:30:12,559
two objects there's no velocity of one

830
00:30:16,870 --> 00:30:13,840
object there's only velocity of one

831
00:30:21,830 --> 00:30:19,269
so um

832
00:30:24,549 --> 00:30:21,840
in quantum

833
00:30:26,310 --> 00:30:24,559
i think is similar the the

834
00:30:28,149 --> 00:30:26,320
the properties are relational not with

835
00:30:29,350 --> 00:30:28,159
respect to an observer not respect to

836
00:30:35,110 --> 00:30:29,360
mind

837
00:30:36,470 --> 00:30:35,120
talk about bernardo castro up soon

838
00:30:38,230 --> 00:30:36,480
so don't worry we'll get the mind we

839
00:30:39,350 --> 00:30:38,240
don't we don't want to go to that or we

840
00:30:41,510 --> 00:30:39,360
can get there

841
00:30:42,950 --> 00:30:41,520
there but i i don't think at all that

842
00:30:45,269 --> 00:30:42,960
quantum mechanics take us in that

843
00:30:46,630 --> 00:30:45,279
direction uh it tell us that things are

844
00:30:48,950 --> 00:30:46,640
relational

845
00:30:52,230 --> 00:30:48,960
not the things are relative to mind

846
00:30:55,909 --> 00:30:53,669
why this is relevant

847
00:30:56,870 --> 00:30:55,919
to your question because

848
00:31:07,190 --> 00:30:56,880
i

849
00:31:08,950 --> 00:31:07,200
we do a lot of stuff that tables and

850
00:31:11,110 --> 00:31:08,960
chairs don't do

851
00:31:12,149 --> 00:31:11,120
but as far as physical properties are

852
00:31:15,029 --> 00:31:12,159
concerned

853
00:31:17,909 --> 00:31:15,039
we're just physical things so

854
00:31:19,509 --> 00:31:17,919
we want to know how nature works in

855
00:31:21,509 --> 00:31:19,519
general on the basis of our experience

856
00:31:23,590 --> 00:31:21,519
of also a limited experience that's the

857
00:31:26,070 --> 00:31:23,600
picture we have about nature and we want

858
00:31:27,669 --> 00:31:26,080
to know how how how work

859
00:31:29,830 --> 00:31:27,679
how digital works with with its

860
00:31:32,070 --> 00:31:29,840
interactions with this

861
00:31:35,029 --> 00:31:32,080
relative variables and that's in the

862
00:31:36,870 --> 00:31:35,039
sense that that's that that's a universe

863
00:31:38,230 --> 00:31:36,880
with its

864
00:31:40,950 --> 00:31:38,240
uh

865
00:31:43,509 --> 00:31:40,960
relational aspects

866
00:31:45,029 --> 00:31:43,519
so for velocity we got used to it

867
00:31:47,909 --> 00:31:45,039
nothing has a velocity by itself

868
00:31:49,830 --> 00:31:47,919
velocity is just a relational thing

869
00:31:52,710 --> 00:31:49,840
since i'm an object i see velocity with

870
00:31:54,230 --> 00:31:52,720
respect to me fine i see that something

871
00:31:56,389 --> 00:31:54,240
is not moving respect to me something

872
00:31:58,549 --> 00:31:56,399
else is but i don't

873
00:32:01,590 --> 00:31:58,559
recognize this as a special point of

874
00:32:04,389 --> 00:32:03,110
with respect to

875
00:32:06,470 --> 00:32:04,399
to jupiter

876
00:32:07,590 --> 00:32:06,480
velocity of everything is different

877
00:32:08,389 --> 00:32:07,600
okay

878
00:32:11,269 --> 00:32:08,399
so

879
00:32:13,269 --> 00:32:11,279
it's a story about nature as it is not

880
00:32:14,870 --> 00:32:13,279
about our own

881
00:32:17,110 --> 00:32:14,880
picture of nature

882
00:32:19,190 --> 00:32:17,120
and as always you know

883
00:32:21,430 --> 00:32:19,200
we learn that we're not special we make

884
00:32:22,789 --> 00:32:21,440
a larger picture of reality

885
00:32:28,549 --> 00:32:22,799
we

886
00:32:30,549 --> 00:32:28,559
um and that's nature out there

887
00:32:33,029 --> 00:32:30,559
okay let me see if i can summarize so

888
00:32:35,029 --> 00:32:33,039
like you said we take a pen or a cup and

889
00:32:37,029 --> 00:32:35,039
ordinarily we can assign its position

890
00:32:39,029 --> 00:32:37,039
and it's momentum and you're saying well

891
00:32:41,509 --> 00:32:39,039
obviously momentum is relative even

892
00:32:43,509 --> 00:32:41,519
position is relative because that's more

893
00:32:45,029 --> 00:32:43,519
immediate it's two meters away from me

894
00:32:46,870 --> 00:32:45,039
but it's not it's probably thousands of

895
00:32:47,990 --> 00:32:46,880
meters away from you tens of thousands

896
00:32:49,909 --> 00:32:48,000
and so on

897
00:32:51,590 --> 00:32:49,919
okay now what if there are other aspects

898
00:32:53,190 --> 00:32:51,600
of this cup that we think are inherent

899
00:32:54,549 --> 00:32:53,200
in the cup so mass

900
00:32:56,470 --> 00:32:54,559
the amount of liquid in it the

901
00:32:58,789 --> 00:32:56,480
reflective properties and so on what if

902
00:33:00,870 --> 00:32:58,799
those are also relational and for any

903
00:33:02,630 --> 00:33:00,880
conceivable property it's not saying

904
00:33:04,789 --> 00:33:02,640
there is nothing there is no thing

905
00:33:06,310 --> 00:33:04,799
behind the cup it's saying that

906
00:33:08,870 --> 00:33:06,320
whatever we think of as this thing

907
00:33:10,549 --> 00:33:08,880
behind the cup is not what we

908
00:33:12,389 --> 00:33:10,559
i don't know if we can even have a model

909
00:33:13,350 --> 00:33:12,399
of it because our models are so property

910
00:33:15,430 --> 00:33:13,360
laden

911
00:33:17,190 --> 00:33:15,440
but whatever it is it's not what we

912
00:33:18,950 --> 00:33:17,200
precisely think you have a book reality

913
00:33:22,149 --> 00:33:18,960
is not what it seems so reality of this

914
00:33:24,470 --> 00:33:22,159
cup is not what it seems is that correct

915
00:33:26,149 --> 00:33:24,480
yeah it's correct it's exactly so

916
00:33:27,509 --> 00:33:26,159
and exactly in fact one way of seeing is

917
00:33:31,110 --> 00:33:27,519
that uh

918
00:33:35,350 --> 00:33:32,470
understanding quantum mechanics

919
00:33:38,950 --> 00:33:36,870
we always knew that there are many

920
00:33:41,029 --> 00:33:38,960
relational properties out there right

921
00:33:41,830 --> 00:33:41,039
velocity relational

922
00:33:47,110 --> 00:33:41,840
um

923
00:33:48,470 --> 00:33:47,120
tell us that all properties are relation

924
00:33:51,110 --> 00:33:48,480
you know firstly

925
00:33:53,350 --> 00:33:51,120
i find you to be extremely philosophical

926
00:33:55,509 --> 00:33:53,360
and much more so than

927
00:33:57,029 --> 00:33:55,519
much more so than the average much much

928
00:33:59,669 --> 00:33:57,039
more so than the average physics

929
00:34:00,470 --> 00:33:59,679
professor i'm curious do you see that

930
00:34:05,590 --> 00:34:00,480
and

931
00:34:08,389 --> 00:34:05,600
true do you feel that's true

932
00:34:10,310 --> 00:34:08,399
uh i'm happy you asked this question and

933
00:34:12,230 --> 00:34:10,320
uh let me answer

934
00:34:14,869 --> 00:34:12,240
in this way depend on what you mean the

935
00:34:16,710 --> 00:34:14,879
average uh physical professor if you

936
00:34:18,950 --> 00:34:16,720
mean

937
00:34:20,389 --> 00:34:18,960
today's physical professors the answer

938
00:34:21,750 --> 00:34:20,399
is definitely yes

939
00:34:23,990 --> 00:34:21,760
i'm not unique

940
00:34:26,310 --> 00:34:24,000
there are many other like me i mean i

941
00:34:27,750 --> 00:34:26,320
could name many that are

942
00:34:29,510 --> 00:34:27,760
us philosophically or even more

943
00:34:33,030 --> 00:34:29,520
philosophically but the

944
00:34:34,389 --> 00:34:33,040
very very large majority of contemporary

945
00:34:36,149 --> 00:34:34,399
um

946
00:34:38,869 --> 00:34:36,159
physics professors are far less

947
00:34:41,109 --> 00:34:38,879
philosophical however

948
00:34:42,389 --> 00:34:41,119
if you look at the past

949
00:34:45,109 --> 00:34:42,399
um

950
00:34:47,349 --> 00:34:45,119
look uh i don't know 100 years ago in

951
00:34:50,470 --> 00:34:47,359
the in the 20s or

952
00:34:51,349 --> 00:34:50,480
of of the of the twentieth century

953
00:34:52,790 --> 00:34:51,359
um

954
00:34:54,869 --> 00:34:52,800
and if you look just look at the great

955
00:34:57,190 --> 00:34:54,879
scientists at the time uh

956
00:35:00,790 --> 00:34:57,200
schroedinger heisenberg

957
00:35:02,790 --> 00:35:00,800
einstein bore the bulgy they were far

958
00:35:05,349 --> 00:35:02,800
more philosophical than me

959
00:35:07,990 --> 00:35:05,359
they were inspired by philosophy reading

960
00:35:10,150 --> 00:35:08,000
philosophy talking philosophy discussing

961
00:35:12,150 --> 00:35:10,160
philosophy

962
00:35:14,390 --> 00:35:12,160
and that includes newton includes

963
00:35:15,589 --> 00:35:14,400
boltzmann includes maxwell includes

964
00:35:18,150 --> 00:35:15,599
faraday

965
00:35:19,750 --> 00:35:18,160
so um

966
00:35:23,109 --> 00:35:19,760
i think that the

967
00:35:25,109 --> 00:35:23,119
major advances in science in physics

968
00:35:26,150 --> 00:35:25,119
in the past but also i mean in other

969
00:35:28,230 --> 00:35:26,160
sciences

970
00:35:29,270 --> 00:35:28,240
in biology darvin was enormously

971
00:35:30,710 --> 00:35:29,280
philosophical he was a reading

972
00:35:32,310 --> 00:35:30,720
philosopher it was strongly influenced

973
00:35:33,829 --> 00:35:32,320
by philosophers

974
00:35:35,910 --> 00:35:33,839
um

975
00:35:37,750 --> 00:35:35,920
so i think that uh

976
00:35:39,030 --> 00:35:37,760
especially in foundational questions of

977
00:35:42,630 --> 00:35:39,040
course if you

978
00:35:44,390 --> 00:35:42,640
the more you go to to apply to specific

979
00:35:45,750 --> 00:35:44,400
systems you're less

980
00:35:47,990 --> 00:35:45,760
you need i mean

981
00:35:49,030 --> 00:35:48,000
you do need a philosophical mind also

982
00:35:51,990 --> 00:35:49,040
for some

983
00:35:53,750 --> 00:35:52,000
some questions in in more more less

984
00:35:55,270 --> 00:35:53,760
foundational questions but but when

985
00:35:56,230 --> 00:35:55,280
you're close to foundational questions

986
00:35:58,950 --> 00:35:56,240
uh

987
00:36:02,470 --> 00:35:58,960
science in the past in the past i mean

988
00:36:04,310 --> 00:36:02,480
until the 60s no

989
00:36:07,589 --> 00:36:04,320
the past

990
00:36:10,870 --> 00:36:07,599
has been very close to uh

991
00:36:13,190 --> 00:36:10,880
to philosophy philosophy questions

992
00:36:15,430 --> 00:36:13,200
influenced by uh by philosophy and and

993
00:36:16,390 --> 00:36:15,440
talking philosophical terms

994
00:36:19,670 --> 00:36:16,400
um

995
00:36:22,069 --> 00:36:19,680
i mean just read einstein einstein

996
00:36:24,230 --> 00:36:22,079
einstein who is a champion of

997
00:36:25,349 --> 00:36:24,240
theoretical physicist for everybody i

998
00:36:26,870 --> 00:36:25,359
would say

999
00:36:29,670 --> 00:36:26,880
uh he

1000
00:36:32,069 --> 00:36:29,680
he has read the three main books by kant

1001
00:36:34,870 --> 00:36:32,079
before getting being 16.

1002
00:36:36,390 --> 00:36:34,880
he was very he read the hume he read the

1003
00:36:40,390 --> 00:36:36,400
uh chopin hour

1004
00:36:42,630 --> 00:36:40,400
uh the philosophical writing of poncare

1005
00:36:43,589 --> 00:36:42,640
as a philosopher

1006
00:36:45,990 --> 00:36:43,599
and

1007
00:36:48,390 --> 00:36:46,000
it's obvious once you go into what he

1008
00:36:50,950 --> 00:36:48,400
did that everything he did

1009
00:36:53,109 --> 00:36:50,960
was very much affected by this

1010
00:36:56,390 --> 00:36:53,119
philosophical thinking

1011
00:36:57,750 --> 00:36:56,400
so i think uh you're right i am

1012
00:36:59,510 --> 00:36:57,760
more

1013
00:37:02,550 --> 00:36:59,520
i belong to the to those scientists who

1014
00:37:06,829 --> 00:37:02,560
are more philosophical than many others

1015
00:37:15,270 --> 00:37:08,390
a

1016
00:37:19,670 --> 00:37:15,280
uh to be

1017
00:37:23,990 --> 00:37:19,680
very technical very mathematical very

1018
00:37:29,030 --> 00:37:25,589
yeah or

1019
00:37:30,710 --> 00:37:29,040
or just do mathematical modeling i think

1020
00:37:33,270 --> 00:37:30,720
that if you invent a sufficiently

1021
00:37:35,190 --> 00:37:33,280
complicated mathematics

1022
00:37:37,430 --> 00:37:35,200
uh you bring this and this and this and

1023
00:37:39,349 --> 00:37:37,440
this and this very hard mathematics and

1024
00:37:41,270 --> 00:37:39,359
blah blah blah and that's you're getting

1025
00:37:43,750 --> 00:37:41,280
close to reality

1026
00:37:45,190 --> 00:37:43,760
maybe not

1027
00:37:46,950 --> 00:37:45,200
you know some people say don't mistake

1028
00:37:52,150 --> 00:37:46,960
the map for the territory

1029
00:37:56,069 --> 00:37:54,710
because i think that a lot of uh

1030
00:37:57,829 --> 00:37:56,079
current

1031
00:37:59,990 --> 00:37:57,839
working theoretical physics is a map

1032
00:38:03,829 --> 00:38:00,000
without a territory

1033
00:38:05,910 --> 00:38:03,839
right now max take mark and i haven't

1034
00:38:07,109 --> 00:38:05,920
seen his lectures on this but i'm sure

1035
00:38:08,630 --> 00:38:07,119
he would object because he has the

1036
00:38:10,390 --> 00:38:08,640
mathematical universe as his

1037
00:38:11,349 --> 00:38:10,400
philosophical framework

1038
00:38:14,470 --> 00:38:11,359
oh

1039
00:38:16,630 --> 00:38:14,480
not at all i mean i think max stegmark

1040
00:38:17,990 --> 00:38:16,640
who is a thinker i deeply respect is one

1041
00:38:19,589 --> 00:38:18,000
of the most philosophical even more

1042
00:38:21,670 --> 00:38:19,599
philosophical than me

1043
00:38:23,829 --> 00:38:21,680
i mean he's a

1044
00:38:25,589 --> 00:38:23,839
he's a philosopher compared to me i mean

1045
00:38:27,349 --> 00:38:25,599
he's a guy who wrote a book claiming

1046
00:38:29,030 --> 00:38:27,359
that every

1047
00:38:31,750 --> 00:38:29,040
um

1048
00:38:33,430 --> 00:38:31,760
every possible coherent mathematically

1049
00:38:35,829 --> 00:38:33,440
described universe is

1050
00:38:38,550 --> 00:38:35,839
as real as the

1051
00:38:39,589 --> 00:38:38,560
our actual one

1052
00:38:41,589 --> 00:38:39,599
um

1053
00:38:44,390 --> 00:38:41,599
that's deep philosophy it has nothing to

1054
00:38:46,950 --> 00:38:44,400
do with direct physics in us it's right

1055
00:38:47,910 --> 00:38:46,960
it's it's wonderful speculations

1056
00:38:52,950 --> 00:38:47,920
max

1057
00:38:54,310 --> 00:38:52,960
an astrophysicist but has a

1058
00:38:56,550 --> 00:38:54,320
a a

1059
00:38:58,550 --> 00:38:56,560
range of wide uh

1060
00:39:00,630 --> 00:38:58,560
very philosophical speculations i think

1061
00:39:02,069 --> 00:39:00,640
we need more people like max

1062
00:39:03,109 --> 00:39:02,079
and less people

1063
00:39:03,990 --> 00:39:03,119
who

1064
00:39:06,470 --> 00:39:04,000
uh

1065
00:39:07,430 --> 00:39:06,480
who just do mathematics without really

1066
00:39:09,349 --> 00:39:07,440
asking

1067
00:39:11,270 --> 00:39:09,359
what is real reality i'm actually

1068
00:39:13,750 --> 00:39:11,280
describing here

1069
00:39:16,550 --> 00:39:13,760
do you see that there's not only a lack

1070
00:39:18,470 --> 00:39:16,560
of philosophical ideation but perhaps a

1071
00:39:20,550 --> 00:39:18,480
resistance to it do you see an aversion

1072
00:39:23,190 --> 00:39:20,560
to it or do you just see it as they lack

1073
00:39:24,470 --> 00:39:23,200
it there's an absence of it

1074
00:39:27,190 --> 00:39:24,480
when i say they i mean let's say the

1075
00:39:30,150 --> 00:39:27,200
average mathematician or physical or

1076
00:39:32,230 --> 00:39:30,160
both both both let's not forget that

1077
00:39:34,630 --> 00:39:32,240
stephen weinberg who is a great

1078
00:39:36,069 --> 00:39:34,640
scientist of course with major major

1079
00:39:38,230 --> 00:39:36,079
results

1080
00:39:40,829 --> 00:39:38,240
wrote a book and one of the chapter of

1081
00:39:44,630 --> 00:39:40,839
the book the title is against

1082
00:39:45,750 --> 00:39:44,640
philosophy and and uh uh stephen hawking

1083
00:39:47,990 --> 00:39:45,760
who is a

1084
00:39:50,230 --> 00:39:48,000
very good physicist of course and he did

1085
00:39:51,829 --> 00:39:50,240
he had important results not as good as

1086
00:39:53,589 --> 00:39:51,839
what weimberg but totally very very

1087
00:39:55,829 --> 00:39:53,599
important

1088
00:39:57,990 --> 00:39:55,839
it's on the record to say many times

1089
00:40:00,870 --> 00:39:58,000
philosophy is dead

1090
00:40:03,270 --> 00:40:00,880
um because now we have signs that solve

1091
00:40:04,870 --> 00:40:03,280
all the problems uh i wish it was true

1092
00:40:06,950 --> 00:40:04,880
but it's wrong because it doesn't solve

1093
00:40:08,950 --> 00:40:06,960
problems it has a lot of problems by

1094
00:40:11,349 --> 00:40:08,960
itself um

1095
00:40:13,270 --> 00:40:11,359
and and and so

1096
00:40:16,069 --> 00:40:13,280
philosophy is not dead philosophy isn't

1097
00:40:18,390 --> 00:40:16,079
constantly interacting with uh um the

1098
00:40:21,109 --> 00:40:18,400
reason is

1099
00:40:23,270 --> 00:40:21,119
that science is not about uh you know

1100
00:40:25,750 --> 00:40:23,280
you make measurement

1101
00:40:27,190 --> 00:40:25,760
and then you write it in the equation

1102
00:40:28,870 --> 00:40:27,200
and then you check your equation with

1103
00:40:30,630 --> 00:40:28,880
the measurement if it is wrong you throw

1104
00:40:33,589 --> 00:40:30,640
it away you try another one that's not

1105
00:40:36,550 --> 00:40:33,599
the way science works the science is

1106
00:40:41,430 --> 00:40:39,270
changing of the conceptual structure you

1107
00:40:43,910 --> 00:40:41,440
use for describing the world

1108
00:40:45,510 --> 00:40:43,920
you rearrange things right you call this

1109
00:40:47,589 --> 00:40:45,520
together you call this separate you

1110
00:40:49,510 --> 00:40:47,599
think differently use different notions

1111
00:40:51,670 --> 00:40:49,520
different concepts

1112
00:40:54,550 --> 00:40:51,680
uh you know copernicus instead of

1113
00:40:56,790 --> 00:40:54,560
seeking the earth the sky you know

1114
00:40:59,829 --> 00:40:56,800
there's a mountain the stones in the sky

1115
00:41:01,430 --> 00:40:59,839
the sun the moon the planets the stars

1116
00:41:03,510 --> 00:41:01,440
he just changed everything he said no no

1117
00:41:06,309 --> 00:41:03,520
no that's not the rightest thing there's

1118
00:41:08,550 --> 00:41:06,319
the sun and the planets

1119
00:41:11,030 --> 00:41:08,560
and the satellites and the planet is the

1120
00:41:13,349 --> 00:41:11,040
earth the moon so it's a completely

1121
00:41:14,630 --> 00:41:13,359
different rearrangement

1122
00:41:17,990 --> 00:41:14,640
of uh

1123
00:41:19,109 --> 00:41:18,000
how to organize the world this is this

1124
00:41:26,069 --> 00:41:19,119
to

1125
00:41:27,750 --> 00:41:26,079
um

1126
00:41:29,990 --> 00:41:27,760
you have to think

1127
00:41:31,349 --> 00:41:30,000
what you called philosophical uh

1128
00:41:33,750 --> 00:41:31,359
thinking that's the kind of thing that i

1129
00:41:35,030 --> 00:41:33,760
stand in the heisenberg did faraday did

1130
00:41:37,589 --> 00:41:35,040
boltzmann did

1131
00:41:38,390 --> 00:41:37,599
and that's not what is done

1132
00:41:40,630 --> 00:41:38,400
by

1133
00:41:42,710 --> 00:41:40,640
a lot of theoretical physics we just

1134
00:41:45,270 --> 00:41:42,720
think that the only thing you have to do

1135
00:41:46,710 --> 00:41:45,280
you know is to write another lagrangian

1136
00:41:49,109 --> 00:41:46,720
or

1137
00:41:51,589 --> 00:41:49,119
to write another you know

1138
00:41:52,950 --> 00:41:51,599
map between a hilbert space and other

1139
00:41:55,270 --> 00:41:52,960
hilbert space

1140
00:41:56,870 --> 00:41:55,280
or a new set of uh

1141
00:41:59,270 --> 00:41:56,880
uh uh

1142
00:42:01,990 --> 00:41:59,280
of scattering relations yeah and that's

1143
00:42:03,750 --> 00:42:02,000
sufficient is that because they want to

1144
00:42:06,150 --> 00:42:03,760
play it safe in a sense because when

1145
00:42:07,510 --> 00:42:06,160
you're just theorizing mathematically

1146
00:42:08,550 --> 00:42:07,520
it's easy to check where you're right

1147
00:42:10,230 --> 00:42:08,560
and wrong whereas if you're

1148
00:42:12,150 --> 00:42:10,240
philosophizing firstly you can delve

1149
00:42:14,630 --> 00:42:12,160
into pseudoscience and not be aware that

1150
00:42:17,510 --> 00:42:14,640
you are and it's much easier to wildly

1151
00:42:19,270 --> 00:42:17,520
speculate and be incorrect is that

1152
00:42:22,150 --> 00:42:19,280
what's behind it like what is behind the

1153
00:42:24,230 --> 00:42:22,160
aversion that you see

1154
00:42:26,550 --> 00:42:24,240
i think it's cultural i think it's

1155
00:42:29,270 --> 00:42:26,560
cultural i mean many of my colleagues

1156
00:42:32,630 --> 00:42:29,280
were raised in the

1157
00:42:34,950 --> 00:42:32,640
60s 70s 80s in a moment in which it

1158
00:42:37,109 --> 00:42:34,960
became very fashionable

1159
00:42:38,150 --> 00:42:37,119
uh to be anti-philosophical

1160
00:42:40,470 --> 00:42:38,160
um

1161
00:42:42,230 --> 00:42:40,480
this is after the war

1162
00:42:44,870 --> 00:42:42,240
uh

1163
00:42:46,630 --> 00:42:44,880
the center of science shifted the part

1164
00:42:48,630 --> 00:42:46,640
toward the united states from europe

1165
00:42:50,550 --> 00:42:48,640
where it was before

1166
00:42:51,829 --> 00:42:50,560
uh

1167
00:42:54,870 --> 00:42:51,839
a little bit

1168
00:42:57,349 --> 00:42:54,880
it's a success of the incredible success

1169
00:42:59,109 --> 00:42:57,359
of the physics of the

1170
00:43:01,990 --> 00:42:59,119
of the 30s

1171
00:43:03,589 --> 00:43:02,000
right the 20s 30s 10th i mean the first

1172
00:43:05,109 --> 00:43:03,599
half of the century

1173
00:43:06,550 --> 00:43:05,119
i mean the discovery of special

1174
00:43:09,349 --> 00:43:06,560
relativity generativity quantum

1175
00:43:12,390 --> 00:43:09,359
mechanics quantum field theory

1176
00:43:14,069 --> 00:43:12,400
was spectacular uh so good

1177
00:43:16,150 --> 00:43:14,079
that then somehow it made sense to say

1178
00:43:17,349 --> 00:43:16,160
well stop thinking let's use it

1179
00:43:19,109 --> 00:43:17,359
right i mean

1180
00:43:21,030 --> 00:43:19,119
we have all these tools that our

1181
00:43:23,430 --> 00:43:21,040
forefathers have discovered i mean

1182
00:43:25,349 --> 00:43:23,440
that's good let's use it and on the

1183
00:43:26,950 --> 00:43:25,359
basis think what has happened on the

1184
00:43:29,109 --> 00:43:26,960
basis of

1185
00:43:31,750 --> 00:43:29,119
quantum mechanics

1186
00:43:34,630 --> 00:43:31,760
uh boom you get you know

1187
00:43:37,109 --> 00:43:34,640
uh nuclear physics particle physics con

1188
00:43:40,390 --> 00:43:37,119
fundamental condensed matter uh

1189
00:43:42,870 --> 00:43:40,400
uh lasers uh

1190
00:43:44,550 --> 00:43:42,880
all sort of models just using the

1191
00:43:45,990 --> 00:43:44,560
equations with the dial by heisenberg

1192
00:43:48,150 --> 00:43:46,000
and company

1193
00:43:50,390 --> 00:43:48,160
and on the basis of special relativity

1194
00:43:52,230 --> 00:43:50,400
it took a little bit longer so the end

1195
00:43:54,390 --> 00:43:52,240
of the century but suddenly you know you

1196
00:43:56,630 --> 00:43:54,400
do relativistic astrophysics cosmology

1197
00:43:58,550 --> 00:43:56,640
black hole boom gravitational waves

1198
00:44:01,589 --> 00:43:58,560
fantastic just on

1199
00:44:02,390 --> 00:44:01,599
on the conceptual ground

1200
00:44:05,589 --> 00:44:02,400
uh

1201
00:44:08,069 --> 00:44:05,599
built in the 20s and 30s

1202
00:44:09,829 --> 00:44:08,079
so that the beginning of the century the

1203
00:44:11,910 --> 00:44:09,839
physicists were so good

1204
00:44:13,990 --> 00:44:11,920
that then people didn't have to think

1205
00:44:16,230 --> 00:44:14,000
for various decades just just

1206
00:44:18,309 --> 00:44:16,240
apply apply apply apply but then you

1207
00:44:20,630 --> 00:44:18,319
need to stop thinking for a while you

1208
00:44:22,230 --> 00:44:20,640
get used to not thinking you get used to

1209
00:44:24,150 --> 00:44:22,240
the idea that it's just mathematical

1210
00:44:26,309 --> 00:44:24,160
complications so if you're sufficiently

1211
00:44:28,230 --> 00:44:26,319
mathematically skilled

1212
00:44:29,670 --> 00:44:28,240
uh then you will do great physics and

1213
00:44:33,589 --> 00:44:29,680
there are people who are

1214
00:44:36,150 --> 00:44:33,599
spectacularly mathematically skilled and

1215
00:44:37,829 --> 00:44:36,160
do all the others like them like edwin

1216
00:44:40,069 --> 00:44:37,839
edward then is

1217
00:44:41,910 --> 00:44:40,079
a great mathematician if there's an

1218
00:44:43,750 --> 00:44:41,920
alien it's him

1219
00:44:46,710 --> 00:44:43,760
yeah but then he drew an entire

1220
00:44:49,109 --> 00:44:46,720
community in doing not physics because

1221
00:44:50,150 --> 00:44:49,119
if you think for a moment

1222
00:44:52,069 --> 00:44:50,160
whitten

1223
00:44:53,910 --> 00:44:52,079
has not got any real

1224
00:44:55,510 --> 00:44:53,920
physical result right

1225
00:44:57,030 --> 00:44:55,520
he has proven the positive energy

1226
00:44:58,870 --> 00:44:57,040
theorem

1227
00:45:00,550 --> 00:44:58,880
generativity which have improved before

1228
00:45:03,190 --> 00:45:00,560
and found a better proof of the positive

1229
00:45:04,870 --> 00:45:03,200
energy that's a mathematical game

1230
00:45:07,109 --> 00:45:04,880
and then he has you know speculated

1231
00:45:10,710 --> 00:45:07,119
about string theory and and

1232
00:45:15,670 --> 00:45:12,630
games over games that haven't produced

1233
00:45:19,510 --> 00:45:17,990
here's a fun question i'm curious if

1234
00:45:20,710 --> 00:45:19,520
you've thought much about it so it's a

1235
00:45:21,990 --> 00:45:20,720
def it's almost a question of

1236
00:45:23,589 --> 00:45:22,000
definitions

1237
00:45:25,109 --> 00:45:23,599
what is the universe so one answer is

1238
00:45:26,710 --> 00:45:25,119
the universe is everything that there is

1239
00:45:28,470 --> 00:45:26,720
so there cannot be an outside to the

1240
00:45:29,910 --> 00:45:28,480
universe by definition

1241
00:45:32,870 --> 00:45:29,920
by the way when i'm talking about

1242
00:45:34,870 --> 00:45:32,880
definitions it seems like that's there's

1243
00:45:36,150 --> 00:45:34,880
no point in talking about definitions

1244
00:45:37,589 --> 00:45:36,160
themselves are not profound because

1245
00:45:39,750 --> 00:45:37,599
they're tautologies

1246
00:45:41,910 --> 00:45:39,760
however when i was speaking to jorah

1247
00:45:44,150 --> 00:45:41,920
barnett and i'm not sure if you know him

1248
00:45:46,069 --> 00:45:44,160
he was saying kurt you want me to talk

1249
00:45:47,430 --> 00:45:46,079
about proofs and theorems what may be

1250
00:45:48,630 --> 00:45:47,440
more important are definitions and

1251
00:45:50,390 --> 00:45:48,640
techniques

1252
00:45:52,630 --> 00:45:50,400
so let's not

1253
00:45:54,470 --> 00:45:52,640
let's not demean definitions so firstly

1254
00:45:58,150 --> 00:45:54,480
what is the definition of the what is

1255
00:46:00,550 --> 00:45:58,160
the definition of the universe and then

1256
00:46:04,550 --> 00:46:00,560
where do the laws stand so are the laws

1257
00:46:07,270 --> 00:46:05,430
um

1258
00:46:09,750 --> 00:46:07,280
the different definitions of the of the

1259
00:46:10,630 --> 00:46:09,760
universe which are useful

1260
00:46:12,950 --> 00:46:10,640
um

1261
00:46:15,589 --> 00:46:12,960
and uh

1262
00:46:19,349 --> 00:46:15,599
it's good not to confuse them because we

1263
00:46:21,829 --> 00:46:19,359
we can use both of them um

1264
00:46:24,470 --> 00:46:21,839
in cosmology

1265
00:46:27,349 --> 00:46:24,480
which is a great discipline which have

1266
00:46:29,829 --> 00:46:27,359
made very important

1267
00:46:31,510 --> 00:46:29,839
had obtained great results in in the

1268
00:46:34,230 --> 00:46:31,520
last decades

1269
00:46:36,630 --> 00:46:34,240
uh the universe is not the totality of

1270
00:46:37,349 --> 00:46:36,640
thing the universe is the

1271
00:46:39,589 --> 00:46:37,359
uh

1272
00:46:43,430 --> 00:46:39,599
the description of what we see around us

1273
00:46:44,550 --> 00:46:43,440
as the largest scale that we look at it

1274
00:46:45,270 --> 00:46:44,560
so

1275
00:46:47,829 --> 00:46:45,280
the

1276
00:46:49,510 --> 00:46:47,839
that universe is a very small thing

1277
00:46:51,030 --> 00:46:49,520
it's lowercase u

1278
00:46:52,470 --> 00:46:51,040
it's just not looking at the details

1279
00:46:54,870 --> 00:46:52,480
it's what you see if you don't look at

1280
00:46:57,109 --> 00:46:54,880
the details but of course the details is

1281
00:46:59,030 --> 00:46:57,119
you and i are the details of that right

1282
00:47:01,349 --> 00:46:59,040
sure in that picture

1283
00:47:03,510 --> 00:47:01,359
uh that's very useful uh it's a very

1284
00:47:05,589 --> 00:47:03,520
strict definition of universe and you

1285
00:47:07,829 --> 00:47:05,599
describe it you know with a scale factor

1286
00:47:09,910 --> 00:47:07,839
that grows in the galaxy density and

1287
00:47:11,750 --> 00:47:09,920
this kind of things and dark matter and

1288
00:47:12,630 --> 00:47:11,760
and so on and so forth

1289
00:47:14,470 --> 00:47:12,640
and

1290
00:47:17,990 --> 00:47:14,480
that has turned out to be very very

1291
00:47:21,589 --> 00:47:18,000
useful because in fact we have learned

1292
00:47:24,309 --> 00:47:21,599
a credible story of what has happened

1293
00:47:25,829 --> 00:47:24,319
for 14 billion years in the past and

1294
00:47:27,510 --> 00:47:25,839
it's a very credible story i mean it's

1295
00:47:29,990 --> 00:47:27,520
very convincing once you study it say

1296
00:47:32,470 --> 00:47:30,000
yeah good we have evidence for that

1297
00:47:34,549 --> 00:47:32,480
but that's not the universe in the sense

1298
00:47:35,829 --> 00:47:34,559
that you were asking right it was

1299
00:47:38,390 --> 00:47:35,839
you were referring to a different

1300
00:47:40,630 --> 00:47:38,400
definition you would say which is all

1301
00:47:42,630 --> 00:47:40,640
there is so to say the totality yeah

1302
00:47:44,790 --> 00:47:42,640
tantamount to reality

1303
00:47:47,510 --> 00:47:44,800
yeah it's a the the

1304
00:47:49,109 --> 00:47:47,520
the the totality of the real things the

1305
00:47:50,790 --> 00:47:49,119
the totality of

1306
00:47:53,430 --> 00:47:50,800
of realities

1307
00:47:55,430 --> 00:47:53,440
uh i agree that definitions are

1308
00:47:56,630 --> 00:47:55,440
um

1309
00:47:58,870 --> 00:47:56,640
not

1310
00:48:01,270 --> 00:47:58,880
are important accusations yeah they're

1311
00:48:02,870 --> 00:48:01,280
not revealed they're not trivial i think

1312
00:48:04,790 --> 00:48:02,880
in some sense they are but they give

1313
00:48:07,589 --> 00:48:04,800
extreme insight yeah they're great

1314
00:48:09,349 --> 00:48:07,599
inside i mean think of the example of uh

1315
00:48:11,670 --> 00:48:09,359
i talk about copernicus right if you

1316
00:48:13,589 --> 00:48:11,680
start by a definition

1317
00:48:14,549 --> 00:48:13,599
you know of uh

1318
00:48:17,270 --> 00:48:14,559
earth

1319
00:48:19,190 --> 00:48:17,280
and and and the celestial bodies

1320
00:48:21,910 --> 00:48:19,200
you you you're done you killed

1321
00:48:24,150 --> 00:48:21,920
copernicus right you have to redefine

1322
00:48:26,069 --> 00:48:24,160
things you have to define planets versus

1323
00:48:27,910 --> 00:48:26,079
stars versus satellite and then you go

1324
00:48:30,390 --> 00:48:27,920
ahead without this definition you're

1325
00:48:31,349 --> 00:48:30,400
lost and then it's a very

1326
00:48:33,990 --> 00:48:31,359
uh

1327
00:48:35,510 --> 00:48:34,000
unintuitive definition planet i mean why

1328
00:48:37,109 --> 00:48:35,520
should i put in the same

1329
00:48:39,190 --> 00:48:37,119
category

1330
00:48:41,030 --> 00:48:39,200
the earth which i see around me you know

1331
00:48:44,150 --> 00:48:41,040
with the trees the mountain the sky the

1332
00:48:45,430 --> 00:48:44,160
birds and this little dot that move out

1333
00:48:47,030 --> 00:48:45,440
there which is venus these are

1334
00:48:48,790 --> 00:48:47,040
completely different things right no

1335
00:48:50,790 --> 00:48:48,800
they're not different things that's the

1336
00:48:52,470 --> 00:48:50,800
point you can define them together and

1337
00:48:54,950 --> 00:48:52,480
bingo you understand how the solar

1338
00:48:55,750 --> 00:48:54,960
system works so definitions are crucial

1339
00:48:59,510 --> 00:48:55,760
now

1340
00:49:03,910 --> 00:48:59,520
the tokenity thing it's a

1341
00:49:08,390 --> 00:49:06,470
because of relational quantum mechanics

1342
00:49:09,430 --> 00:49:08,400
ah so

1343
00:49:10,390 --> 00:49:09,440
uh

1344
00:49:13,670 --> 00:49:10,400
you see

1345
00:49:15,750 --> 00:49:13,680
if you buy malaysia quantum mechanics

1346
00:49:17,510 --> 00:49:15,760
you cannot ascribe properties the

1347
00:49:18,950 --> 00:49:17,520
totality of things because all

1348
00:49:21,510 --> 00:49:18,960
properties are really relative to

1349
00:49:23,349 --> 00:49:21,520
something else

1350
00:49:25,430 --> 00:49:23,359
so there is no

1351
00:49:27,349 --> 00:49:25,440
uh

1352
00:49:30,150 --> 00:49:27,359
there is no properties the universe has

1353
00:49:32,630 --> 00:49:30,160
no property in fact the universe is is

1354
00:49:33,910 --> 00:49:32,640
is not a system because a system is

1355
00:49:36,390 --> 00:49:33,920
something which can interact with

1356
00:49:38,470 --> 00:49:36,400
another system

1357
00:49:40,549 --> 00:49:38,480
to reveal its properties so to manifest

1358
00:49:41,990 --> 00:49:40,559
its properties

1359
00:49:42,950 --> 00:49:42,000
so you

1360
00:49:44,309 --> 00:49:42,960
if you buy a relational quantum

1361
00:49:46,390 --> 00:49:44,319
mechanics you only have descriptions of

1362
00:49:48,630 --> 00:49:46,400
the units from the inside so to say

1363
00:49:51,670 --> 00:49:48,640
just keep your universe as a whole you

1364
00:49:53,349 --> 00:49:52,470
so

1365
00:49:55,109 --> 00:49:53,359
uh

1366
00:49:57,589 --> 00:49:55,119
if you take serious relation quantum

1367
00:50:00,150 --> 00:49:57,599
mechanics and if you take seriously uh

1368
00:50:02,230 --> 00:50:00,160
what several philosophers today

1369
00:50:03,589 --> 00:50:02,240
are telling us

1370
00:50:06,069 --> 00:50:03,599
uh

1371
00:50:07,109 --> 00:50:06,079
i i think for instance janan ismail is

1372
00:50:08,390 --> 00:50:07,119
one of them

1373
00:50:09,990 --> 00:50:08,400
that

1374
00:50:11,510 --> 00:50:10,000
careful because every time we look at

1375
00:50:13,990 --> 00:50:11,520
the universe we'll look at universe from

1376
00:50:16,309 --> 00:50:14,000
the inside as being part of the universe

1377
00:50:17,990 --> 00:50:16,319
not from the outside and we often get

1378
00:50:20,230 --> 00:50:18,000
confused

1379
00:50:21,910 --> 00:50:20,240
because we we take it out of the picture

1380
00:50:23,910 --> 00:50:21,920
we think that we can

1381
00:50:26,470 --> 00:50:23,920
see that totality of things from the

1382
00:50:28,710 --> 00:50:26,480
outside and and and that's wrong and a

1383
00:50:29,750 --> 00:50:28,720
lot of confusion about i don't know free

1384
00:50:30,870 --> 00:50:29,760
will

1385
00:50:31,829 --> 00:50:30,880
um

1386
00:50:33,109 --> 00:50:31,839
or

1387
00:50:33,990 --> 00:50:33,119
um

1388
00:50:35,589 --> 00:50:34,000
or

1389
00:50:37,030 --> 00:50:35,599
what is knowledge

1390
00:50:38,790 --> 00:50:37,040
it's always thinking that we're outside

1391
00:50:41,030 --> 00:50:38,800
the universe that's the universe with

1392
00:50:43,430 --> 00:50:41,040
its stuff and we are out there looking

1393
00:50:45,349 --> 00:50:43,440
at that that's it's not true it's

1394
00:50:47,349 --> 00:50:45,359
factually not true

1395
00:50:49,589 --> 00:50:47,359
uh so

1396
00:50:52,230 --> 00:50:49,599
the universe in the sense of cosmology

1397
00:50:53,829 --> 00:50:52,240
is fine it's perfectly good thing but

1398
00:50:55,430 --> 00:50:53,839
the universe in the sense of the

1399
00:50:57,910 --> 00:50:55,440
totality of thing

1400
00:50:59,910 --> 00:50:57,920
uh it's uh it's a notion one should be

1401
00:51:01,349 --> 00:50:59,920
very careful with in my opinion for

1402
00:51:03,270 --> 00:51:01,359
instance one should not abstract

1403
00:51:04,230 --> 00:51:03,280
properties of the universe because how

1404
00:51:09,990 --> 00:51:04,240
do

1405
00:51:11,990 --> 00:51:10,000
any sense

1406
00:51:14,230 --> 00:51:12,000
there are many in principle problems

1407
00:51:16,230 --> 00:51:14,240
with conceiving of the universe well in

1408
00:51:18,150 --> 00:51:16,240
principle problems with science apply to

1409
00:51:19,910 --> 00:51:18,160
the universe as a whole because in

1410
00:51:21,670 --> 00:51:19,920
science we're constantly looking at

1411
00:51:23,750 --> 00:51:21,680
interacting parts within

1412
00:51:26,069 --> 00:51:23,760
and so then firstly how are you supposed

1413
00:51:28,309 --> 00:51:26,079
to perform an experiment twice on the

1414
00:51:30,870 --> 00:51:28,319
universe as a whole because the universe

1415
00:51:32,710 --> 00:51:30,880
is the entirety

1416
00:51:34,230 --> 00:51:32,720
okay except you might expand exactly on

1417
00:51:35,829 --> 00:51:34,240
that so what are the problems of the er

1418
00:51:36,950 --> 00:51:35,839
what else are the problems the in

1419
00:51:38,950 --> 00:51:36,960
principle problems not just

1420
00:51:40,549 --> 00:51:38,960
pragmatically we can't interact with all

1421
00:51:43,510 --> 00:51:40,559
of the universe the in principle

1422
00:51:44,950 --> 00:51:43,520
problems with conducting science or even

1423
00:51:47,670 --> 00:51:44,960
thought experiments about the universe

1424
00:51:52,390 --> 00:51:48,470
um

1425
00:51:55,430 --> 00:51:52,400
yes uh i can't but

1426
00:51:57,030 --> 00:51:55,440
before doing that let me reiterate uh uh

1427
00:51:58,950 --> 00:51:57,040
the distinction between the two

1428
00:52:00,710 --> 00:51:58,960
different meanings of of universe i mean

1429
00:52:03,430 --> 00:52:00,720
when the cosmologists

1430
00:52:05,670 --> 00:52:03,440
talk about the universe that's solid

1431
00:52:08,549 --> 00:52:05,680
science that's observable the universe

1432
00:52:10,309 --> 00:52:08,559
is what is the absolute universe okay

1433
00:52:13,109 --> 00:52:10,319
uh

1434
00:52:14,230 --> 00:52:13,119
the the universe is a cosmologist so

1435
00:52:15,589 --> 00:52:14,240
it's uh

1436
00:52:17,829 --> 00:52:15,599
what is it

1437
00:52:22,069 --> 00:52:17,839
it's the the large

1438
00:52:25,829 --> 00:52:23,750
so uh

1439
00:52:28,470 --> 00:52:25,839
we look at that universe from the

1440
00:52:31,190 --> 00:52:28,480
outside right we have a telescope with

1441
00:52:33,910 --> 00:52:31,200
the telescope we count galaxies

1442
00:52:37,510 --> 00:52:33,920
so the telescope and us is the observer

1443
00:52:39,109 --> 00:52:37,520
the the galaxy's counted it's the system

1444
00:52:41,670 --> 00:52:39,119
we're observing

1445
00:52:44,390 --> 00:52:41,680
so it's fine it's it's perfectly fine we

1446
00:52:46,390 --> 00:52:44,400
can see this galaxy we see how much

1447
00:52:47,829 --> 00:52:46,400
they're moving apart from us we can

1448
00:52:50,630 --> 00:52:47,839
trace back

1449
00:52:53,430 --> 00:52:50,640
how compressed they were in the before

1450
00:52:54,470 --> 00:52:53,440
we have a system we can model it

1451
00:52:56,309 --> 00:52:54,480
um

1452
00:53:00,470 --> 00:52:56,319
and we're observing these degrees of

1453
00:53:04,630 --> 00:53:01,750
from the outside in the sense that we

1454
00:53:05,510 --> 00:53:04,640
are not part of those degrees of freedom

1455
00:53:10,230 --> 00:53:05,520
we are

1456
00:53:12,309 --> 00:53:10,240
it from not being one of them it's like

1457
00:53:14,150 --> 00:53:12,319
if we were i'm in this room and i study

1458
00:53:15,990 --> 00:53:14,160
the air of this room i can be inside the

1459
00:53:17,910 --> 00:53:16,000
room but i'm not there

1460
00:53:20,790 --> 00:53:17,920
okay

1461
00:53:24,870 --> 00:53:20,800
so so that's fine on the other hand

1462
00:53:27,430 --> 00:53:24,880
uh the idea of describing the totality

1463
00:53:29,030 --> 00:53:27,440
of thing of ascribing a wave function

1464
00:53:31,270 --> 00:53:29,040
for instance through the totality of

1465
00:53:33,109 --> 00:53:31,280
things

1466
00:53:33,990 --> 00:53:33,119
which is common

1467
00:53:37,190 --> 00:53:34,000
uh

1468
00:53:39,190 --> 00:53:37,200
i i don't think it's a good idea

1469
00:53:42,309 --> 00:53:39,200
because uh

1470
00:53:45,910 --> 00:53:42,319
let's be real specific the wave function

1471
00:53:49,030 --> 00:53:45,920
of an object a wave function of this pen

1472
00:53:51,510 --> 00:53:49,040
uh it's a way of computing

1473
00:53:54,309 --> 00:53:51,520
where this pen is gonna

1474
00:53:57,990 --> 00:53:54,319
show up with respect to me next

1475
00:54:00,470 --> 00:53:58,000
right right so

1476
00:54:03,109 --> 00:54:00,480
when when i'm in a laboratory and and

1477
00:54:05,990 --> 00:54:03,119
and and and do some quantum measurement

1478
00:54:08,950 --> 00:54:06,000
uh and and i use the wave function the

1479
00:54:10,630 --> 00:54:08,960
quantum state for uh predicting what i'm

1480
00:54:13,430 --> 00:54:10,640
going to see

1481
00:54:15,430 --> 00:54:13,440
uh i i'm deducing this wave function

1482
00:54:18,309 --> 00:54:15,440
from what i saw

1483
00:54:20,069 --> 00:54:18,319
okay i've seen this pen the spin of this

1484
00:54:21,990 --> 00:54:20,079
particle in one way goes to some

1485
00:54:23,750 --> 00:54:22,000
apparatus and i have the

1486
00:54:25,670 --> 00:54:23,760
probability of the

1487
00:54:28,069 --> 00:54:25,680
spin being this way or that way after

1488
00:54:30,230 --> 00:54:28,079
the pentagon supply that's a typical

1489
00:54:32,309 --> 00:54:30,240
uh super simplified calculation and to

1490
00:54:34,150 --> 00:54:32,319
do this calculation i use the quantum

1491
00:54:36,470 --> 00:54:34,160
wave function of this

1492
00:54:37,910 --> 00:54:36,480
of this uh of this pen but what is this

1493
00:54:39,670 --> 00:54:37,920
quantum wave wavefunction

1494
00:54:42,710 --> 00:54:39,680
is what i

1495
00:54:44,230 --> 00:54:42,720
know about the pen

1496
00:54:46,230 --> 00:54:44,240
and it's a

1497
00:54:47,990 --> 00:54:46,240
a description

1498
00:54:49,750 --> 00:54:48,000
of what should i expect of the pet so

1499
00:54:51,349 --> 00:54:49,760
it's something that regard the pen and

1500
00:54:53,270 --> 00:54:51,359
me

1501
00:54:54,710 --> 00:54:53,280
it's a it's a relative state and the

1502
00:54:56,950 --> 00:54:54,720
person who

1503
00:54:57,829 --> 00:54:56,960
first has understood

1504
00:54:59,510 --> 00:54:57,839
that

1505
00:55:00,950 --> 00:54:59,520
when you use quantum states in quantum

1506
00:55:03,190 --> 00:55:00,960
mechanics we always talk about relative

1507
00:55:04,230 --> 00:55:03,200
space is evident

1508
00:55:05,430 --> 00:55:04,240
uh

1509
00:55:08,309 --> 00:55:05,440
in

1510
00:55:09,910 --> 00:55:08,319
several decades ago uh everett has

1511
00:55:11,750 --> 00:55:09,920
understood that states are relative

1512
00:55:13,510 --> 00:55:11,760
states so the quantum state of an object

1513
00:55:15,829 --> 00:55:13,520
is always relative to another object

1514
00:55:16,950 --> 00:55:15,839
okay this is a state is a relational

1515
00:55:19,349 --> 00:55:16,960
thing

1516
00:55:20,950 --> 00:55:19,359
and once you understand that

1517
00:55:22,950 --> 00:55:20,960
clearly

1518
00:55:25,109 --> 00:55:22,960
the totality of thing does not does not

1519
00:55:27,030 --> 00:55:25,119
have a quantum state

1520
00:55:29,430 --> 00:55:27,040
because unless you believe there is god

1521
00:55:31,670 --> 00:55:29,440
then god thinks do quantum experiments

1522
00:55:33,670 --> 00:55:31,680
on on the but then god is not part of

1523
00:55:36,069 --> 00:55:33,680
the universe

1524
00:55:39,270 --> 00:55:36,079
then you lose n god together don't have

1525
00:55:39,990 --> 00:55:39,280
a quantum state right so um

1526
00:55:49,270 --> 00:55:40,000
the

1527
00:55:52,470 --> 00:55:49,280
everything um i think is not something

1528
00:55:55,190 --> 00:55:52,480
that should uh enter in is not a useful

1529
00:55:58,230 --> 00:55:55,200
notion in physics the

1530
00:56:00,710 --> 00:55:58,240
way functions are relational notions

1531
00:56:05,190 --> 00:56:00,720
um that connect a system with another

1532
00:56:08,870 --> 00:56:06,870
okay so three thoughts occur to me i'm

1533
00:56:10,230 --> 00:56:08,880
gonna say them and then just so that i

1534
00:56:11,670 --> 00:56:10,240
don't forget them and then we can tackle

1535
00:56:13,589 --> 00:56:11,680
them one by one

1536
00:56:15,589 --> 00:56:13,599
okay so number one you mentioned everett

1537
00:56:17,670 --> 00:56:15,599
and i believe everett was a proponent of

1538
00:56:20,390 --> 00:56:17,680
many worlds i'm in i'm not sure about

1539
00:56:22,630 --> 00:56:20,400
that so okay you nodding your head so if

1540
00:56:24,870 --> 00:56:22,640
that's the case well if he

1541
00:56:26,470 --> 00:56:24,880
in many ways realized this relative

1542
00:56:28,150 --> 00:56:26,480
notion of quantum mechanics the

1543
00:56:29,670 --> 00:56:28,160
relational notion so why did he move to

1544
00:56:31,430 --> 00:56:29,680
many worlds so that's one i'm going to

1545
00:56:33,510 --> 00:56:31,440
say the others so don't forget them

1546
00:56:35,030 --> 00:56:33,520
number two

1547
00:56:37,109 --> 00:56:35,040
when we're speaking even right now just

1548
00:56:38,309 --> 00:56:37,119
with the english language it seems

1549
00:56:40,549 --> 00:56:38,319
incredibly

1550
00:56:42,230 --> 00:56:40,559
misleading because as soon as i say i

1551
00:56:44,630 --> 00:56:42,240
look right there i use the word i and

1552
00:56:46,549 --> 00:56:44,640
you also mentioned as many philosophers

1553
00:56:48,230 --> 00:56:46,559
come to similar conclusions well what is

1554
00:56:49,990 --> 00:56:48,240
this i what is behind so as soon as you

1555
00:56:52,470 --> 00:56:50,000
start to analyze any word as soon as i

1556
00:56:54,630 --> 00:56:52,480
say cup well what is the cup

1557
00:56:56,870 --> 00:56:54,640
okay you we realize that

1558
00:56:59,430 --> 00:56:56,880
every everyday language is beguiling so

1559
00:57:00,630 --> 00:56:59,440
it can't actually describe reality no

1560
00:57:02,950 --> 00:57:00,640
i'm wondering

1561
00:57:04,789 --> 00:57:02,960
is there something similar with math

1562
00:57:07,349 --> 00:57:04,799
do you believe that math is somehow

1563
00:57:09,990 --> 00:57:07,359
exempt from this that math is actually

1564
00:57:11,829 --> 00:57:10,000
can't math actually can describe reality

1565
00:57:13,829 --> 00:57:11,839
so that's my number two don't worry i've

1566
00:57:15,750 --> 00:57:13,839
got all these in my head and the number

1567
00:57:17,510 --> 00:57:15,760
three was i didn't hear

1568
00:57:19,990 --> 00:57:17,520
an answer to

1569
00:57:21,910 --> 00:57:20,000
whether or not the laws themselves like

1570
00:57:24,549 --> 00:57:21,920
the rules of the game are part of the

1571
00:57:26,710 --> 00:57:24,559
game or in other words

1572
00:57:28,870 --> 00:57:26,720
if when one thinks of reality as a whole

1573
00:57:30,789 --> 00:57:28,880
is one also supposed to think of

1574
00:57:32,630 --> 00:57:30,799
the laws that reality operate by as

1575
00:57:35,109 --> 00:57:32,640
being a part of reality so let's get to

1576
00:57:37,510 --> 00:57:35,119
number one why did everett come to

1577
00:57:41,910 --> 00:57:37,520
alternate conclusions yes um so the

1578
00:57:46,309 --> 00:57:44,789
you said everett is is considered the uh

1579
00:57:49,190 --> 00:57:46,319
sort of the beginning of a many world

1580
00:57:52,309 --> 00:57:49,200
interpretation that's correct

1581
00:57:53,990 --> 00:57:52,319
no that's correct and uh in fact uh many

1582
00:57:55,990 --> 00:57:54,000
people who like the many world

1583
00:57:58,150 --> 00:57:56,000
interpretation called all calls this

1584
00:57:59,190 --> 00:57:58,160
inspiration also the everett interpreter

1585
00:58:01,349 --> 00:57:59,200
right i think that's where i got it

1586
00:58:02,309 --> 00:58:01,359
called himself

1587
00:58:03,990 --> 00:58:02,319
um

1588
00:58:07,589 --> 00:58:04,000
everett wrote a

1589
00:58:09,349 --> 00:58:07,599
a a fantastic paper plus other uh

1590
00:58:10,950 --> 00:58:09,359
other things in which there are a number

1591
00:58:14,549 --> 00:58:10,960
of ideas

1592
00:58:16,950 --> 00:58:14,559
um we also have the um

1593
00:58:18,470 --> 00:58:16,960
the thesis that everett wrote when he

1594
00:58:19,670 --> 00:58:18,480
left physics

1595
00:58:20,710 --> 00:58:19,680
um

1596
00:58:23,990 --> 00:58:20,720
so

1597
00:58:26,710 --> 00:58:24,000
one question it might be what he himself

1598
00:58:28,069 --> 00:58:26,720
actually thought about quantum mechanics

1599
00:58:29,349 --> 00:58:28,079
but that's not a very interesting

1600
00:58:31,190 --> 00:58:29,359
question i mean

1601
00:58:32,789 --> 00:58:31,200
what is interesting is not what actually

1602
00:58:34,789 --> 00:58:32,799
people thought at some time what is

1603
00:58:36,710 --> 00:58:34,799
interesting what can we do with the with

1604
00:58:39,190 --> 00:58:36,720
their ideas and their text

1605
00:58:41,589 --> 00:58:39,200
and everett has introduced this notion

1606
00:58:43,109 --> 00:58:41,599
of uh

1607
00:58:47,190 --> 00:58:43,119
relational states

1608
00:58:48,549 --> 00:58:47,200
which i think is spectacularly good

1609
00:58:51,190 --> 00:58:48,559
and one way

1610
00:58:53,349 --> 00:58:51,200
of developing that idea is relational

1611
00:58:56,230 --> 00:58:53,359
quantum mechanics namely thinking that

1612
00:58:59,430 --> 00:58:56,240
properties are all relational

1613
00:59:01,349 --> 00:58:59,440
another way of developing that idea

1614
00:59:03,349 --> 00:59:01,359
is the many world interpretation so if

1615
00:59:05,510 --> 00:59:03,359
you want from evidence you can branch

1616
00:59:07,589 --> 00:59:05,520
off to two possible

1617
00:59:08,630 --> 00:59:07,599
uh directions of thinking about quantum

1618
00:59:10,470 --> 00:59:08,640
theory

1619
00:59:12,789 --> 00:59:10,480
the mineral interpretation

1620
00:59:14,470 --> 00:59:12,799
it goes the opposite direction than

1621
00:59:17,990 --> 00:59:14,480
relational quantum mechanics even if it

1622
00:59:20,390 --> 00:59:18,000
has this common idea that properties are

1623
00:59:22,309 --> 00:59:20,400
relatively they

1624
00:59:24,470 --> 00:59:22,319
many more people will say to to system

1625
00:59:27,670 --> 00:59:24,480
into branches

1626
00:59:29,270 --> 00:59:27,680
um the the main world idea is is is

1627
00:59:31,910 --> 00:59:29,280
contrary is to take

1628
00:59:34,069 --> 00:59:31,920
the wave functional universe seriously

1629
00:59:35,910 --> 00:59:34,079
and think that this is all there is this

1630
00:59:37,270 --> 00:59:35,920
wave function of the universe this

1631
00:59:39,910 --> 00:59:37,280
overall

1632
00:59:41,349 --> 00:59:39,920
uh super quantum state in which we are

1633
00:59:43,750 --> 00:59:41,359
sitting

1634
00:59:46,309 --> 00:59:43,760
and uh um

1635
00:59:48,710 --> 00:59:46,319
and all the rest has to be sort of

1636
00:59:49,829 --> 00:59:48,720
extracted from

1637
00:59:51,750 --> 00:59:49,839
uh

1638
00:59:52,549 --> 00:59:51,760
derived from from

1639
00:59:54,630 --> 00:59:52,559
from

1640
00:59:56,309 --> 00:59:54,640
this wave function of the universe

1641
00:59:58,390 --> 00:59:56,319
this wave function of everything and

1642
01:00:01,430 --> 00:59:58,400
that's a real stuff that's sort of the

1643
01:00:02,789 --> 01:00:01,440
main it was interpretation um it's very

1644
01:00:04,710 --> 01:00:02,799
interesting

1645
01:00:05,349 --> 01:00:04,720
i don't like it very much i think that

1646
01:00:06,630 --> 01:00:05,359
as

1647
01:00:08,230 --> 01:00:06,640
i said at the beginning each

1648
01:00:09,910 --> 01:00:08,240
interpretation is a cost and i don't

1649
01:00:12,390 --> 01:00:09,920
think it's a cost

1650
01:00:15,510 --> 01:00:12,400
that is bringing us ahead

1651
01:00:18,630 --> 01:00:15,520
because uh you know if you think

1652
01:00:18,900 --> 01:00:18,640
uh if you if you take it seriously

1653
01:00:20,230 --> 01:00:18,910
um

1654
01:00:22,150 --> 01:00:20,240
[Music]

1655
01:00:25,030 --> 01:00:22,160
the universe is sort of constantly

1656
01:00:27,430 --> 01:00:25,040
splitting in multiple

1657
01:00:30,150 --> 01:00:27,440
branches of this big wave function

1658
01:00:32,230 --> 01:00:30,160
where you and i are copied millions and

1659
01:00:33,829 --> 01:00:32,240
millions of times

1660
01:00:36,390 --> 01:00:33,839
uh so you always think that there is the

1661
01:00:38,470 --> 01:00:36,400
other the other the other copies of

1662
01:00:39,670 --> 01:00:38,480
non-realized

1663
01:00:41,750 --> 01:00:39,680
uh yeah

1664
01:00:43,670 --> 01:00:41,760
you might think that way but it's

1665
01:00:45,190 --> 01:00:43,680
nothing wrong but i don't think it's

1666
01:00:47,510 --> 01:00:45,200
useful

1667
01:00:49,990 --> 01:00:47,520
okay so then number two was about the

1668
01:00:50,950 --> 01:00:50,000
limitations of language and then do you

1669
01:00:53,190 --> 01:00:50,960
see

1670
01:00:54,630 --> 01:00:53,200
any similar limitations to

1671
01:00:57,670 --> 01:00:54,640
the language of mathematics to the

1672
01:01:00,549 --> 01:00:57,680
degree you can call it a language

1673
01:01:03,349 --> 01:01:00,559
as describing the universe

1674
01:01:05,990 --> 01:01:03,359
i i don't think mathematics

1675
01:01:06,380 --> 01:01:06,000
alone is sufficient

1676
01:01:09,750 --> 01:01:06,390
um

1677
01:01:14,069 --> 01:01:12,630
i mean i i listen and i read max tech

1678
01:01:15,990 --> 01:01:14,079
mark but nevertheless i think that

1679
01:01:17,990 --> 01:01:16,000
between mathematics and reality there is

1680
01:01:19,190 --> 01:01:18,000
a gap

1681
01:01:21,349 --> 01:01:19,200
um

1682
01:01:24,309 --> 01:01:21,359
i think mathematics is not out there

1683
01:01:27,190 --> 01:01:24,319
mathematics is a game we play fantastic

1684
01:01:29,030 --> 01:01:27,200
game play super useful

1685
01:01:31,430 --> 01:01:29,040
that we extract from

1686
01:01:33,750 --> 01:01:31,440
from reality

1687
01:01:34,630 --> 01:01:33,760
but i think that

1688
01:01:36,470 --> 01:01:34,640
um

1689
01:01:38,150 --> 01:01:36,480
if i use case but if i think case by

1690
01:01:39,750 --> 01:01:38,160
case the mathematics that describe a

1691
01:01:40,630 --> 01:01:39,760
pendulum

1692
01:01:43,589 --> 01:01:40,640
okay

1693
01:01:45,510 --> 01:01:43,599
which we learn at school when we study

1694
01:01:47,349 --> 01:01:45,520
you know the the differential equation

1695
01:01:49,109 --> 01:01:47,359
of a pendulum the solution sine or

1696
01:01:50,789 --> 01:01:49,119
cosine

1697
01:01:53,190 --> 01:01:50,799
it's beautiful mathematic but it's not

1698
01:01:55,109 --> 01:01:53,200
pendulum

1699
01:01:57,190 --> 01:01:55,119
okay now you can say okay because

1700
01:01:59,510 --> 01:01:57,200
something is missing in a real pendulum

1701
01:02:02,309 --> 01:01:59,520
there's also this also this also this

1702
01:02:03,670 --> 01:02:02,319
but i think it it it stays like that i

1703
01:02:05,349 --> 01:02:03,680
mean you refine your model your

1704
01:02:07,270 --> 01:02:05,359
mathematical model

1705
01:02:08,950 --> 01:02:07,280
but there's a jump

1706
01:02:15,330 --> 01:02:08,960
between

1707
01:02:18,150 --> 01:02:16,710
[Music]

1708
01:02:19,990 --> 01:02:18,160
when you do

1709
01:02:21,829 --> 01:02:20,000
you get to complicated theories like

1710
01:02:23,829 --> 01:02:21,839
current physical theory standard model

1711
01:02:25,910 --> 01:02:23,839
generativity

1712
01:02:27,750 --> 01:02:25,920
it's even stronger i mean these

1713
01:02:29,589 --> 01:02:27,760
equations need to be interpreted need to

1714
01:02:32,789 --> 01:02:29,599
be connected

1715
01:02:34,950 --> 01:02:32,799
to what we see and this connection

1716
01:02:36,630 --> 01:02:34,960
it's part of the story and it's even the

1717
01:02:38,390 --> 01:02:36,640
most interesting part of the story so to

1718
01:02:40,390 --> 01:02:38,400
say it's not sufficient to have

1719
01:02:41,910 --> 01:02:40,400
questions at that i mean what does it

1720
01:02:43,750 --> 01:02:41,920
mean you have a question we have all

1721
01:02:45,270 --> 01:02:43,760
space of solutions

1722
01:02:47,270 --> 01:02:45,280
now max stigma could say okay that's

1723
01:02:49,510 --> 01:02:47,280
reality that's over all the reason we

1724
01:02:50,710 --> 01:02:49,520
just happen to be into one

1725
01:02:53,190 --> 01:02:50,720
um

1726
01:02:55,430 --> 01:02:53,200
but which one that's that's uh

1727
01:02:58,390 --> 01:02:55,440
that's the connection to reality

1728
01:03:00,390 --> 01:02:58,400
so this means that also mathematics has

1729
01:03:02,470 --> 01:03:00,400
the same problem that you are describing

1730
01:03:04,470 --> 01:03:02,480
i mean our

1731
01:03:06,549 --> 01:03:04,480
everyday language

1732
01:03:09,109 --> 01:03:06,559
might be inappropriate

1733
01:03:10,950 --> 01:03:09,119
to describe the world

1734
01:03:13,589 --> 01:03:10,960
we have to refine it we have to invent

1735
01:03:15,750 --> 01:03:13,599
the new new words planet which include

1736
01:03:17,430 --> 01:03:15,760
the earth

1737
01:03:19,109 --> 01:03:17,440
but the same is true with mathematics i

1738
01:03:21,190 --> 01:03:19,119
mean the fact of writing a big

1739
01:03:22,950 --> 01:03:21,200
mathematical equations is completely

1740
01:03:25,029 --> 01:03:22,960
insufficient

1741
01:03:25,829 --> 01:03:25,039
unless we

1742
01:03:27,349 --> 01:03:25,839
uh

1743
01:03:30,470 --> 01:03:27,359
interpret

1744
01:03:33,270 --> 01:03:30,480
it's its ingredients and we connect it

1745
01:03:34,950 --> 01:03:33,280
to the world into our experience

1746
01:03:36,950 --> 01:03:34,960
so the

1747
01:03:39,029 --> 01:03:36,960
the indeterminacy of language that you

1748
01:03:40,309 --> 01:03:39,039
were referring to we have to struggle

1749
01:03:48,630 --> 01:03:40,319
with

1750
01:03:51,109 --> 01:03:48,640
we should not

1751
01:03:53,270 --> 01:03:51,119
uh think that we can

1752
01:03:55,910 --> 01:03:53,280
you know get to the bottom of the story

1753
01:03:58,069 --> 01:03:55,920
and have a perfectly

1754
01:04:01,109 --> 01:03:58,079
logical perfect language description of

1755
01:04:02,470 --> 01:04:01,119
reality and everything is clarified

1756
01:04:05,430 --> 01:04:02,480
we're not there

1757
01:04:06,789 --> 01:04:05,440
completely not there by by the zillions

1758
01:04:08,630 --> 01:04:06,799
of miles

1759
01:04:10,549 --> 01:04:08,640
we are in a big mess in which we see a

1760
01:04:12,789 --> 01:04:10,559
complicated world we understand part of

1761
01:04:15,109 --> 01:04:12,799
it we understand some regularities of it

1762
01:04:15,990 --> 01:04:15,119
and we call this our physics

1763
01:04:19,109 --> 01:04:16,000
um

1764
01:04:21,430 --> 01:04:19,119
and this this takes me to the

1765
01:04:22,789 --> 01:04:21,440
the third question about the laws

1766
01:04:23,910 --> 01:04:22,799
yeah to the third question about the

1767
01:04:27,270 --> 01:04:23,920
laws

1768
01:04:29,829 --> 01:04:27,280
uh which you asked before um

1769
01:04:31,349 --> 01:04:29,839
i think that what laws are

1770
01:04:35,029 --> 01:04:31,359
as far as we know

1771
01:04:36,069 --> 01:04:35,039
just uh irregularities so

1772
01:04:42,150 --> 01:04:36,079
we

1773
01:04:44,870 --> 01:04:42,160
uh

1774
01:04:46,870 --> 01:04:44,880
nature works so phenomenal not just with

1775
01:04:47,589 --> 01:04:46,880
respect to us the phenomena with respect

1776
01:04:50,230 --> 01:04:47,599
to

1777
01:04:53,190 --> 01:04:50,240
saturn when saturn when something hits

1778
01:04:57,430 --> 01:04:53,200
saturn this saturn it's it's hit by by a

1779
01:04:59,349 --> 01:04:57,440
meteorite like i'm hit by your voice

1780
01:05:00,390 --> 01:04:59,359
uh

1781
01:05:02,710 --> 01:05:00,400
the world

1782
01:05:05,349 --> 01:05:02,720
it's it's it's it's this is a fact it's

1783
01:05:06,950 --> 01:05:05,359
a mixture of two things

1784
01:05:09,109 --> 01:05:06,960
of uh

1785
01:05:10,710 --> 01:05:09,119
uh contingent thing that we have no idea

1786
01:05:12,549 --> 01:05:10,720
how to predict

1787
01:05:14,470 --> 01:05:12,559
and predictable things

1788
01:05:17,510 --> 01:05:14,480
it's always been like that right i don't

1789
01:05:19,750 --> 01:05:17,520
know who will bring my phone next but i

1790
01:05:21,910 --> 01:05:19,760
know that tomorrow the sun will rise

1791
01:05:22,789 --> 01:05:21,920
i know exactly what time it will rise

1792
01:05:24,470 --> 01:05:22,799
okay

1793
01:05:26,870 --> 01:05:24,480
so there's a part of the world which is

1794
01:05:29,270 --> 01:05:26,880
incredibly easy to predict

1795
01:05:31,270 --> 01:05:29,280
i mean if i let this thing fall i know

1796
01:05:32,789 --> 01:05:31,280
it will go down and not up i can predict

1797
01:05:34,150 --> 01:05:32,799
it i can bet of it and i'm going to win

1798
01:05:36,470 --> 01:05:34,160
them it

1799
01:05:37,990 --> 01:05:36,480
so there's a huge part of the

1800
01:05:39,190 --> 01:05:38,000
world which is predictable and there's a

1801
01:05:40,549 --> 01:05:39,200
huge part of the world which is

1802
01:05:42,710 --> 01:05:40,559
unpredictable

1803
01:05:44,390 --> 01:05:42,720
so we organized that in our science and

1804
01:05:47,109 --> 01:05:44,400
physics in particular and we call the

1805
01:05:49,029 --> 01:05:47,119
predictable story the laws

1806
01:05:50,870 --> 01:05:49,039
that we found out okay this what did

1807
01:05:52,470 --> 01:05:50,880
this i mean we found some regularity

1808
01:05:54,630 --> 01:05:52,480
very very good very strong regular i

1809
01:05:56,390 --> 01:05:54,640
think we call the laws

1810
01:05:59,349 --> 01:05:56,400
and we

1811
01:06:01,670 --> 01:05:59,359
have unpredictable part which we call

1812
01:06:04,069 --> 01:06:01,680
initial conditions or

1813
01:06:06,870 --> 01:06:04,079
uh you know and determination in quantum

1814
01:06:09,270 --> 01:06:06,880
mechanics we give other names

1815
01:06:10,710 --> 01:06:09,280
um to the fact that uh definitely the

1816
01:06:12,549 --> 01:06:10,720
laws are not sufficient to describe the

1817
01:06:14,309 --> 01:06:12,559
world right or obviously because a

1818
01:06:18,390 --> 01:06:14,319
single law has many solutions we don't

1819
01:06:22,390 --> 01:06:19,829
as an aside

1820
01:06:23,750 --> 01:06:22,400
you hear people say well copernicus

1821
01:06:25,430 --> 01:06:23,760
realized that the earth revolves around

1822
01:06:27,910 --> 01:06:25,440
the sun isn't one of the points of

1823
01:06:29,990 --> 01:06:27,920
general relativity to say that you can

1824
01:06:31,670 --> 01:06:30,000
actually view it both ways you can just

1825
01:06:33,190 --> 01:06:31,680
change the coordinates according to

1826
01:06:35,190 --> 01:06:33,200
system technically

1827
01:06:36,390 --> 01:06:35,200
okay yeah you're right

1828
01:06:38,150 --> 01:06:36,400
yes you're right

1829
01:06:40,630 --> 01:06:38,160
you're right in fact

1830
01:06:44,470 --> 01:06:42,309
in fact

1831
01:06:49,270 --> 01:06:44,480
if you ask don't put this way because i

1832
01:06:53,430 --> 01:06:51,510
the question um

1833
01:06:55,510 --> 01:06:53,440
is is the earth going around the sun or

1834
01:06:56,390 --> 01:06:55,520
the sun going around the earth

1835
01:06:57,910 --> 01:06:56,400
uh

1836
01:07:03,029 --> 01:06:57,920
let me put a simpler question is the

1837
01:07:06,549 --> 01:07:05,109
is that a scientific question yes of

1838
01:07:09,109 --> 01:07:06,559
course it's a scientific question right

1839
01:07:11,349 --> 01:07:09,119
in fact jumping out from this

1840
01:07:12,789 --> 01:07:11,359
idea that the center center is what

1841
01:07:15,430 --> 01:07:12,799
allowed us to do

1842
01:07:17,829 --> 01:07:15,440
newtonian physics kepler and everything

1843
01:07:19,510 --> 01:07:17,839
i mean we understood so much

1844
01:07:22,069 --> 01:07:19,520
but let's ask let's think about this

1845
01:07:24,870 --> 01:07:22,079
question can it be measured whether the

1846
01:07:26,950 --> 01:07:24,880
earth is a central universe or not no

1847
01:07:29,829 --> 01:07:26,960
right there's no way to measure it we

1848
01:07:32,069 --> 01:07:29,839
have no no way of thinking what is the

1849
01:07:33,670 --> 01:07:32,079
center of the universe

1850
01:07:35,670 --> 01:07:33,680
but it's not

1851
01:07:37,029 --> 01:07:35,680
something which is uh directly

1852
01:07:38,630 --> 01:07:37,039
measurable

1853
01:07:42,630 --> 01:07:38,640
and i think this is interesting because

1854
01:07:44,470 --> 01:07:42,640
it shows that science is not just about

1855
01:07:46,470 --> 01:07:44,480
measurable things

1856
01:07:49,829 --> 01:07:46,480
science as i said before is about

1857
01:07:51,829 --> 01:07:49,839
organizing your thinking in some way

1858
01:07:52,950 --> 01:07:51,839
so if you organize your thinking as the

1859
01:07:55,029 --> 01:07:52,960
earth

1860
01:07:56,549 --> 01:07:55,039
not moving everything going around it in

1861
01:07:57,990 --> 01:07:56,559
some way

1862
01:07:59,829 --> 01:07:58,000
you're just messing up your your

1863
01:08:02,069 --> 01:07:59,839
understanding it's just it's too

1864
01:08:04,150 --> 01:08:02,079
complicated you're not getting out of it

1865
01:08:05,829 --> 01:08:04,160
but if you start to organize things

1866
01:08:07,670 --> 01:08:05,839
first is this is

1867
01:08:09,670 --> 01:08:07,680
the sun and then say oh no actually it's

1868
01:08:11,190 --> 01:08:09,680
not the sun the sun is also moving and

1869
01:08:12,710 --> 01:08:11,200
then you better again

1870
01:08:14,069 --> 01:08:12,720
um

1871
01:08:16,709 --> 01:08:14,079
there's no center in the universe

1872
01:08:18,390 --> 01:08:16,719
there's no preferred reference frame um

1873
01:08:19,829 --> 01:08:18,400
some up properties some of the other

1874
01:08:21,110 --> 01:08:19,839
properties

1875
01:08:24,390 --> 01:08:21,120
you

1876
01:08:27,030 --> 01:08:24,400
better ways and of course the previous

1877
01:08:29,510 --> 01:08:27,040
one looked a little bit naive always

1878
01:08:30,950 --> 01:08:29,520
okay it's not true that the sun is the

1879
01:08:32,550 --> 01:08:30,960
center of india is going around it's

1880
01:08:34,470 --> 01:08:32,560
more complicated story like the one you

1881
01:08:35,829 --> 01:08:34,480
said it's more correct

1882
01:08:37,189 --> 01:08:35,839
um

1883
01:08:38,709 --> 01:08:37,199
so

1884
01:08:40,390 --> 01:08:38,719
science is not about

1885
01:08:44,070 --> 01:08:40,400
true or false

1886
01:08:46,390 --> 01:08:44,080
statement

1887
01:08:48,309 --> 01:08:46,400
it's about the best way we found so far

1888
01:08:50,550 --> 01:08:48,319
for thinking about the universe

1889
01:08:52,470 --> 01:08:50,560
the one that allows us to understand

1890
01:08:54,149 --> 01:08:52,480
things to predict thing to write laws

1891
01:08:55,990 --> 01:08:54,159
more easily

1892
01:08:58,149 --> 01:08:56,000
i think me and you think

1893
01:08:59,269 --> 01:08:58,159
quite alike and i heard a hint of it

1894
01:09:01,110 --> 01:08:59,279
when you said that there are different

1895
01:09:02,870 --> 01:09:01,120
quantum mechanical interpretations and

1896
01:09:06,309 --> 01:09:02,880
in some sense they're each right

1897
01:09:07,189 --> 01:09:06,319
now that phrase they're each right

1898
01:09:09,110 --> 01:09:07,199
that's

1899
01:09:10,789 --> 01:09:09,120
i'm not driven by promoting peace even

1900
01:09:11,990 --> 01:09:10,799
though it seems like i'm ironic it's

1901
01:09:14,149 --> 01:09:12,000
just that

1902
01:09:16,709 --> 01:09:14,159
look i i didn't say they're each right i

1903
01:09:17,829 --> 01:09:16,719
see i said they're each coherent and

1904
01:09:19,590 --> 01:09:17,839
possible

1905
01:09:22,789 --> 01:09:19,600
they're not wrong

1906
01:09:24,950 --> 01:09:22,799
let me explain so before copernicus

1907
01:09:27,269 --> 01:09:24,960
earth center copernicus no sun is

1908
01:09:30,149 --> 01:09:27,279
centered einstein hey you're both right

1909
01:09:31,910 --> 01:09:30,159
in some way now i'm curious as i

1910
01:09:33,110 --> 01:09:31,920
investigate more philosophy even

1911
01:09:34,630 --> 01:09:33,120
religion

1912
01:09:36,550 --> 01:09:34,640
just like there was this line in your

1913
01:09:38,470 --> 01:09:36,560
book about up and down and it seems to

1914
01:09:40,070 --> 01:09:38,480
make no sense it seems contradictory

1915
01:09:42,149 --> 01:09:40,080
until you view it from another point of

1916
01:09:44,390 --> 01:09:42,159
view and you see oh well what's up to

1917
01:09:45,749 --> 01:09:44,400
australians is down to us canadians and

1918
01:09:48,550 --> 01:09:45,759
so on

1919
01:09:51,590 --> 01:09:48,560
okay well i'm als i also see or also

1920
01:09:53,510 --> 01:09:51,600
wonder how much of religion and

1921
01:09:55,669 --> 01:09:53,520
well philosophy in general but let's

1922
01:09:57,350 --> 01:09:55,679
just take religion

1923
01:09:59,110 --> 01:09:57,360
it's it seems like

1924
01:10:01,270 --> 01:09:59,120
the major religions contradict with one

1925
01:10:02,870 --> 01:10:01,280
another but are they true contradictions

1926
01:10:04,709 --> 01:10:02,880
when viewed from another perspective is

1927
01:10:06,390 --> 01:10:04,719
there another one in which you can say

1928
01:10:07,990 --> 01:10:06,400
actually that's right in some way that's

1929
01:10:11,110 --> 01:10:08,000
right in some other way and that's right

1930
01:10:13,910 --> 01:10:11,120
no okay i've just outlined in a sense my

1931
01:10:16,390 --> 01:10:13,920
outlook my personality

1932
01:10:18,310 --> 01:10:16,400
do you view problems like that or do you

1933
01:10:19,350 --> 01:10:18,320
see what i said as having any truth or

1934
01:10:21,030 --> 01:10:19,360
is there something that i should be

1935
01:10:23,590 --> 01:10:21,040
aware of as a limitation in that

1936
01:10:28,870 --> 01:10:25,830
well it's it's uh

1937
01:10:30,870 --> 01:10:28,880
you bring different things together um

1938
01:10:33,270 --> 01:10:30,880
first of all uh

1939
01:10:34,870 --> 01:10:33,280
let me separate my answer in two parts

1940
01:10:36,790 --> 01:10:34,880
first of all uh

1941
01:10:40,470 --> 01:10:36,800
religion is a very complicated phenomena

1942
01:10:41,350 --> 01:10:40,480
very very very wide phenomenon

1943
01:10:43,590 --> 01:10:41,360
uh

1944
01:10:45,750 --> 01:10:43,600
you mentioned the big religion

1945
01:10:47,270 --> 01:10:45,760
religions big religions first of all

1946
01:10:49,430 --> 01:10:47,280
they're different from one another

1947
01:10:52,070 --> 01:10:49,440
they're different properties second they

1948
01:10:53,189 --> 01:10:52,080
are institutions their people their

1949
01:10:55,910 --> 01:10:53,199
history

1950
01:10:58,709 --> 01:10:55,920
their center of powers sometimes the

1951
01:11:00,870 --> 01:10:58,719
systems of beliefs they make statement

1952
01:11:02,950 --> 01:11:00,880
their moral systems

1953
01:11:05,030 --> 01:11:02,960
uh their ways for people for thinking

1954
01:11:06,470 --> 01:11:05,040
the world their way of people to getting

1955
01:11:08,229 --> 01:11:06,480
together you know you go to the church

1956
01:11:10,950 --> 01:11:08,239
and you fight friends

1957
01:11:12,149 --> 01:11:10,960
so um

1958
01:11:14,390 --> 01:11:12,159
it's uh

1959
01:11:16,550 --> 01:11:14,400
it makes no sense to say

1960
01:11:18,310 --> 01:11:16,560
uh it's certain religion right or wrong

1961
01:11:20,950 --> 01:11:18,320
i mean it's like saying is the united

1962
01:11:22,950 --> 01:11:20,960
states right or wrong well it's in my

1963
01:11:24,630 --> 01:11:22,960
opinion is wrong in some things like

1964
01:11:26,870 --> 01:11:24,640
some other thing

1965
01:11:29,590 --> 01:11:26,880
i disagree with some of his politics i

1966
01:11:32,390 --> 01:11:29,600
like some of its uh face ideology

1967
01:11:33,990 --> 01:11:32,400
whatever so um

1968
01:11:38,070 --> 01:11:34,000
so uh

1969
01:11:41,189 --> 01:11:38,080
if you isolate within religion

1970
01:11:43,750 --> 01:11:41,199
uh certain uh moral

1971
01:11:47,270 --> 01:11:43,760
aspect uh

1972
01:11:50,070 --> 01:11:47,280
definitely you you

1973
01:11:52,470 --> 01:11:50,080
i am not religious at all i'm an atheist

1974
01:11:54,870 --> 01:11:52,480
i feel perfectly sympathetic i mean i'm

1975
01:11:56,870 --> 01:11:54,880
happy to uh

1976
01:11:58,870 --> 01:11:56,880
fight together with some religious

1977
01:12:00,070 --> 01:11:58,880
people for the peace in the world i

1978
01:12:03,189 --> 01:12:00,080
don't know

1979
01:12:06,070 --> 01:12:03,199
um if you isolate some other aspects

1980
01:12:09,110 --> 01:12:06,080
uh like the belief that was a creator

1981
01:12:11,030 --> 01:12:09,120
which is a person i just find it wrong

1982
01:12:12,149 --> 01:12:11,040
i i think it's wrong

1983
01:12:15,270 --> 01:12:12,159
so

1984
01:12:17,990 --> 01:12:15,280
uh it's a very complicated story and i i

1985
01:12:20,310 --> 01:12:18,000
i see a lot of bad in religions i also

1986
01:12:21,669 --> 01:12:20,320
see a lot of good religions i i don't

1987
01:12:23,110 --> 01:12:21,679
want to enter in which one i think is

1988
01:12:23,990 --> 01:12:23,120
strong

1989
01:12:26,870 --> 01:12:24,000
um

1990
01:12:29,669 --> 01:12:26,880
now let me let me zoom into your your

1991
01:12:32,149 --> 01:12:29,679
point uh because you said well does this

1992
01:12:34,790 --> 01:12:32,159
mean that tamal

1993
01:12:40,790 --> 01:12:34,800
there is always some something right

1994
01:12:45,669 --> 01:12:43,350
it's more interesting namely

1995
01:12:48,950 --> 01:12:45,679
uh i think that we

1996
01:12:51,590 --> 01:12:48,960
we humans live in a dialogue

1997
01:12:53,510 --> 01:12:51,600
and the good of the dialogue

1998
01:12:55,510 --> 01:12:53,520
is that we change our mind because of

1999
01:12:58,070 --> 01:12:55,520
what we hear from the other guy right

2000
01:13:00,470 --> 01:12:58,080
that's how culture has developed that's

2001
01:13:03,110 --> 01:13:00,480
how science has developed

2002
01:13:05,270 --> 01:13:03,120
and each time so

2003
01:13:06,950 --> 01:13:05,280
we're always

2004
01:13:09,270 --> 01:13:06,960
the best thinking

2005
01:13:11,750 --> 01:13:09,280
it's always in search of what is wrong

2006
01:13:13,590 --> 01:13:11,760
not what is right okay what is wrong

2007
01:13:15,270 --> 01:13:13,600
with my thinking what is wrong in your

2008
01:13:17,110 --> 01:13:15,280
thinking because that's what allows us

2009
01:13:18,550 --> 01:13:17,120
to go ahead right

2010
01:13:20,149 --> 01:13:18,560
is

2011
01:13:27,030 --> 01:13:20,159
the

2012
01:13:27,830 --> 01:13:27,040
has not been you know to to to

2013
01:13:36,470 --> 01:13:27,840
to

2014
01:13:39,669 --> 01:13:36,480
center is wrong

2015
01:13:40,790 --> 01:13:39,679
just found something wrong in the

2016
01:13:42,709 --> 01:13:40,800
uh

2017
01:13:43,990 --> 01:13:42,719
in the basis

2018
01:13:45,350 --> 01:13:44,000
of

2019
01:13:47,990 --> 01:13:45,360
um

2020
01:13:49,669 --> 01:13:48,000
of the way astronomers thought for for

2021
01:13:52,310 --> 01:13:49,679
centuries and and you know a couple

2022
01:13:55,350 --> 01:13:52,320
generation later ketler

2023
01:13:57,350 --> 01:13:55,360
did the same game he discovered that for

2024
01:13:59,030 --> 01:13:57,360
two millennia people try to make sense

2025
01:14:01,590 --> 01:13:59,040
of what we see in the sky in terms of

2026
01:14:03,750 --> 01:14:01,600
circles and he says this is not circles

2027
01:14:05,430 --> 01:14:03,760
they're ellipses okay so after two

2028
01:14:07,030 --> 01:14:05,440
millennia of circles he said well forget

2029
01:14:09,430 --> 01:14:07,040
circles

2030
01:14:10,470 --> 01:14:09,440
so what is interesting what we are wrong

2031
01:14:12,550 --> 01:14:10,480
okay

2032
01:14:15,189 --> 01:14:12,560
and i think there are a lot of wrong

2033
01:14:17,910 --> 01:14:15,199
ideas in instead of all

2034
01:14:19,430 --> 01:14:17,920
inside a lot of beautiful

2035
01:14:21,990 --> 01:14:19,440
moral social

2036
01:14:24,790 --> 01:14:22,000
human constructions and behaviors there

2037
01:14:25,590 --> 01:14:24,800
are just wrong ideas in many religions

2038
01:14:26,950 --> 01:14:25,600
um

2039
01:14:28,390 --> 01:14:26,960
it has to be so because they are so

2040
01:14:29,750 --> 01:14:28,400
contradictory of one another of course

2041
01:14:31,510 --> 01:14:29,760
there's some wrong ideas i mean they

2042
01:14:33,430 --> 01:14:31,520
cannot be all right

2043
01:14:35,669 --> 01:14:33,440
so the fact that we can learn from one

2044
01:14:38,550 --> 01:14:35,679
another and

2045
01:14:40,830 --> 01:14:38,560
we can often um

2046
01:14:42,630 --> 01:14:40,840
take a larger point of view

2047
01:14:45,270 --> 01:14:42,640
on

2048
01:14:47,990 --> 01:14:45,280
does not change the fact that there's a

2049
01:14:49,990 --> 01:14:48,000
precise sense in which uh

2050
01:14:52,390 --> 01:14:50,000
the pre-copernicus system the ptolemaic

2051
01:14:54,470 --> 01:14:52,400
system is just wrong factually wrong and

2052
01:14:55,189 --> 01:14:54,480
copernicus system is wrong

2053
01:14:57,910 --> 01:14:55,199
and

2054
01:14:59,750 --> 01:14:57,920
kepler is wrong because

2055
01:15:01,510 --> 01:14:59,760
planets don't go along ellipses they

2056
01:15:03,430 --> 01:15:01,520
move more complicated and newton's

2057
01:15:04,950 --> 01:15:03,440
theory is wrong because if you take

2058
01:15:06,310 --> 01:15:04,960
newton's theory

2059
01:15:08,470 --> 01:15:06,320
and you

2060
01:15:10,709 --> 01:15:08,480
use neutral theory to compute the motion

2061
01:15:12,709 --> 01:15:10,719
of mercury just get it wrong

2062
01:15:14,709 --> 01:15:12,719
okay you miss a little correction which

2063
01:15:16,070 --> 01:15:14,719
comes correct with generativity

2064
01:15:17,270 --> 01:15:16,080
so

2065
01:15:18,310 --> 01:15:17,280
um

2066
01:15:19,910 --> 01:15:18,320
in a sense

2067
01:15:22,310 --> 01:15:19,920
uh

2068
01:15:25,350 --> 01:15:23,350
i'm not

2069
01:15:26,790 --> 01:15:25,360
i think there is to learn from from

2070
01:15:27,990 --> 01:15:26,800
different things i think it's good to

2071
01:15:30,070 --> 01:15:28,000
give

2072
01:15:31,590 --> 01:15:30,080
keep an open mind and to listen

2073
01:15:33,669 --> 01:15:31,600
different perspective

2074
01:15:35,590 --> 01:15:33,679
but the interesting of the dialogue is

2075
01:15:38,470 --> 01:15:35,600
precisely when we can

2076
01:15:41,590 --> 01:15:38,480
step out from mistakes in one one one

2077
01:15:45,430 --> 01:15:43,590
see for me when it comes to religion in

2078
01:15:47,590 --> 01:15:45,440
particular i would say up until just a

2079
01:15:49,430 --> 01:15:47,600
couple years ago i was such an adamant

2080
01:15:51,430 --> 01:15:49,440
atheist and i wouldn't say that i'm a

2081
01:15:53,510 --> 01:15:51,440
theist now at all i'm i just wouldn't

2082
01:15:56,630 --> 01:15:53,520
classify myself as either being pro or

2083
01:15:58,870 --> 01:15:56,640
against but say i'm undecided the reason

2084
01:16:01,830 --> 01:15:58,880
why i don't focus on the wrong

2085
01:16:03,510 --> 01:16:01,840
is because to people like me and and you

2086
01:16:06,070 --> 01:16:03,520
scientifically minded people it's fairly

2087
01:16:07,350 --> 01:16:06,080
obvious the wrong it's just so blatant i

2088
01:16:09,750 --> 01:16:07,360
find it much more interesting and

2089
01:16:11,430 --> 01:16:09,760
difficult to see well what is compatible

2090
01:16:14,070 --> 01:16:11,440
and what is correct from another point

2091
01:16:15,830 --> 01:16:14,080
of view may also that

2092
01:16:18,870 --> 01:16:15,840
definitely knowing where one is wrong

2093
01:16:20,310 --> 01:16:18,880
even the nuances of incorrectness adds

2094
01:16:22,149 --> 01:16:20,320
to certain correctness like gives you

2095
01:16:23,350 --> 01:16:22,159
different points of view so let's i

2096
01:16:25,430 --> 01:16:23,360
understand that

2097
01:16:28,229 --> 01:16:25,440
you know speaking of what's wrong i'm

2098
01:16:31,830 --> 01:16:28,239
curious let's imagine if

2099
01:16:34,310 --> 01:16:31,840
all properties are relative okay now is

2100
01:16:36,870 --> 01:16:34,320
the law that all properties are relative

2101
01:16:38,790 --> 01:16:36,880
a property can you be relational with

2102
01:16:40,950 --> 01:16:38,800
respect to the principle of relation

2103
01:16:42,390 --> 01:16:40,960
what does that even mean does that lie

2104
01:16:43,590 --> 01:16:42,400
outside

2105
01:16:45,830 --> 01:16:43,600
do you understand what i'm saying i know

2106
01:16:47,030 --> 01:16:45,840
this is extremely ill-defined

2107
01:16:48,310 --> 01:16:47,040
but i'm always interested in what

2108
01:16:49,350 --> 01:16:48,320
happens when a principle is applied to

2109
01:16:51,830 --> 01:16:49,360
itself

2110
01:16:53,030 --> 01:16:51,840
so even let's say bayesian reasoning

2111
01:16:55,350 --> 01:16:53,040
if you ask someone who says i'm a

2112
01:16:57,270 --> 01:16:55,360
bayesian reasoner okay so do you believe

2113
01:16:59,990 --> 01:16:57,280
anything with 100 certainty they may say

2114
01:17:01,590 --> 01:17:00,000
no like i'm a scientist so i okay do you

2115
01:17:03,350 --> 01:17:01,600
doubt the principle of

2116
01:17:04,790 --> 01:17:03,360
bayesian reasoning even one even a

2117
01:17:06,790 --> 01:17:04,800
little even a tiny because as soon as

2118
01:17:08,229 --> 01:17:06,800
you open a sliver there then what

2119
01:17:09,430 --> 01:17:08,239
happens when you

2120
01:17:17,750 --> 01:17:09,440
well

2121
01:17:19,510 --> 01:17:17,760
saying um

2122
01:17:22,630 --> 01:17:19,520
i think that one of the

2123
01:17:26,470 --> 01:17:22,640
interesting trends in contemporary

2124
01:17:32,790 --> 01:17:27,750
it's

2125
01:17:34,630 --> 01:17:33,669
uh

2126
01:17:36,910 --> 01:17:34,640
it's not

2127
01:17:40,709 --> 01:17:36,920
a new idea there was

2128
01:17:41,590 --> 01:17:40,719
anti-foundationalism in um

2129
01:17:43,669 --> 01:17:41,600
thinking

2130
01:17:46,550 --> 01:17:43,679
in in western and also in eastern

2131
01:17:48,310 --> 01:17:46,560
philosophy um

2132
01:17:52,149 --> 01:17:48,320
and this is idea that what does that

2133
01:17:55,750 --> 01:17:52,159
mean yeah it's idea that you uh

2134
01:17:56,830 --> 01:17:55,760
you don't need to hold

2135
01:18:00,229 --> 01:17:56,840
to

2136
01:18:02,550 --> 01:18:00,239
um uh

2137
01:18:03,430 --> 01:18:02,560
not only to absolute certainty but to

2138
01:18:09,590 --> 01:18:03,440
any

2139
01:18:11,830 --> 01:18:09,600
is is sort of is a shift is idea of

2140
01:18:14,149 --> 01:18:11,840
shifting

2141
01:18:16,070 --> 01:18:14,159
from what we can say for sure what can

2142
01:18:18,390 --> 01:18:16,080
you say from final

2143
01:18:20,790 --> 01:18:18,400
to uh what we can say

2144
01:18:24,310 --> 01:18:20,800
um

2145
01:18:25,430 --> 01:18:24,320
interesting and and and valuable

2146
01:18:27,110 --> 01:18:25,440
um

2147
01:18:30,950 --> 01:18:27,120
in fact this is

2148
01:18:32,630 --> 01:18:30,960
look uh kurt your your um

2149
01:18:34,229 --> 01:18:32,640
your series is about the theory of

2150
01:18:35,510 --> 01:18:34,239
everything

2151
01:18:36,630 --> 01:18:35,520
i don't think we need a theory of

2152
01:18:39,030 --> 01:18:36,640
everything

2153
01:18:41,830 --> 01:18:39,040
i i think we need good theories

2154
01:18:43,750 --> 01:18:41,840
the more coherent possible the more

2155
01:18:45,189 --> 01:18:43,760
uh useful possible more advanced

2156
01:18:49,430 --> 01:18:45,199
possible

2157
01:18:53,510 --> 01:18:50,950
as soon as someone says yes i think of

2158
01:18:56,470 --> 01:18:53,520
pragmatism like it's all a goal based

2159
01:18:58,550 --> 01:18:56,480
whether it's adaptive uh

2160
01:19:00,870 --> 01:18:58,560
well maybe it's pragmatic i don't know

2161
01:19:02,630 --> 01:19:00,880
it's a

2162
01:19:05,270 --> 01:19:02,640
pragmatism

2163
01:19:07,510 --> 01:19:05,280
philosophical current has as much more

2164
01:19:08,630 --> 01:19:07,520
um

2165
01:19:17,110 --> 01:19:08,640
i

2166
01:19:18,709 --> 01:19:17,120
uh

2167
01:19:20,550 --> 01:19:18,719
this attitude

2168
01:19:22,310 --> 01:19:20,560
which is look we can learn it's it's

2169
01:19:24,390 --> 01:19:22,320
historically we know what we can learn

2170
01:19:27,910 --> 01:19:24,400
we can learn more and more and more but

2171
01:19:30,149 --> 01:19:27,920
it's not useful it's useful to ask

2172
01:19:33,510 --> 01:19:30,159
as best as we know today what is the

2173
01:19:35,350 --> 01:19:33,520
best organization we have of our of of

2174
01:19:37,669 --> 01:19:35,360
of the world and it's true that there's

2175
01:19:39,590 --> 01:19:37,679
a remarkable coherence in our culture

2176
01:19:43,110 --> 01:19:39,600
and our understanding of the world

2177
01:19:45,510 --> 01:19:43,120
but asking what is the final

2178
01:19:47,669 --> 01:19:45,520
uh ingredient of the world what is the

2179
01:19:49,430 --> 01:19:47,679
final rules of thinking

2180
01:19:51,510 --> 01:19:49,440
what is the basic substance of

2181
01:19:53,030 --> 01:19:51,520
everything it's just a bad it's a

2182
01:19:55,910 --> 01:19:53,040
useless question

2183
01:19:58,550 --> 01:19:55,920
that's my take

2184
01:20:01,430 --> 01:19:58,560
so can we live with uncertainty yes do

2185
01:20:02,470 --> 01:20:01,440
we have to take something as

2186
01:20:05,110 --> 01:20:02,480
uh

2187
01:20:06,149 --> 01:20:05,120
can we doubt our also our doubt sure we

2188
01:20:10,229 --> 01:20:06,159
can

2189
01:20:15,270 --> 01:20:12,950
i will read from your book to give

2190
01:20:17,189 --> 01:20:15,280
people an overview and by the way write

2191
01:20:18,870 --> 01:20:17,199
previous to this question i just wrote

2192
01:20:21,590 --> 01:20:18,880
down a wonderfully

2193
01:20:24,070 --> 01:20:21,600
philosophical set of sentences from you

2194
01:20:25,830 --> 01:20:24,080
which was about bryce and john

2195
01:20:27,590 --> 01:20:25,840
when you met them and then you felt the

2196
01:20:29,590 --> 01:20:27,600
pain of their absence you then wrote but

2197
01:20:31,669 --> 01:20:29,600
it isn't the absence that causes sorrow

2198
01:20:33,910 --> 01:20:31,679
it is affection and love without

2199
01:20:36,709 --> 01:20:33,920
affection without love such absences

2200
01:20:39,669 --> 01:20:36,719
would cause us no pain for this reason

2201
01:20:42,390 --> 01:20:39,679
even the pain caused by absence is in

2202
01:20:43,990 --> 01:20:42,400
the end something good and beautiful

2203
01:20:45,510 --> 01:20:44,000
because it feeds on that which gives

2204
01:20:47,350 --> 01:20:45,520
meaning to life

2205
01:20:48,550 --> 01:20:47,360
if those of you who are watching are

2206
01:20:49,990 --> 01:20:48,560
listening

2207
01:20:51,430 --> 01:20:50,000
i've recommended only one book

2208
01:20:53,990 --> 01:20:51,440
consistently and that's ian mcgill

2209
01:20:55,430 --> 01:20:54,000
christ's master and his emissary and i'm

2210
01:20:57,510 --> 01:20:55,440
going to start to add a second one and

2211
01:20:59,350 --> 01:20:57,520
that's order of time

2212
01:21:01,189 --> 01:20:59,360
it's filled with firstly if you want to

2213
01:21:03,510 --> 01:21:01,199
know about the nature of time and how

2214
01:21:04,870 --> 01:21:03,520
time has been thought of and redefined

2215
01:21:06,310 --> 01:21:04,880
or not well

2216
01:21:09,430 --> 01:21:06,320
recontextualized is a better way of

2217
01:21:11,189 --> 01:21:09,440
thinking about it it's

2218
01:21:13,189 --> 01:21:11,199
it's a wonderful wonderful book and it's

2219
01:21:14,950 --> 01:21:13,199
quite short so the opposite is ian

2220
01:21:17,510 --> 01:21:14,960
mcgill chris which is i think

2221
01:21:18,870 --> 01:21:17,520
a tome and then yours is a compendium

2222
01:21:20,709 --> 01:21:18,880
it's quite

2223
01:21:22,310 --> 01:21:20,719
digestible

2224
01:21:23,510 --> 01:21:22,320
okay let's get to thermal time so

2225
01:21:25,110 --> 01:21:23,520
firstly i want to

2226
01:21:28,149 --> 01:21:25,120
tell you how beautiful

2227
01:21:29,830 --> 01:21:28,159
that set of lines were

2228
01:21:31,830 --> 01:21:29,840
thank you very much good thank you for

2229
01:21:35,030 --> 01:21:31,840
saying that about uh the audio of time

2230
01:21:36,709 --> 01:21:35,040
is it's definitely the book which is uh

2231
01:21:38,550 --> 01:21:36,719
that i've written which is more close to

2232
01:21:41,110 --> 01:21:38,560
my to my heart because uh

2233
01:21:43,669 --> 01:21:41,120
it's a book and you know the quotation

2234
01:21:45,350 --> 01:21:43,679
you you mentioned uh uh

2235
01:21:46,870 --> 01:21:45,360
shows it um

2236
01:21:48,310 --> 01:21:46,880
it's a book in which i talk about

2237
01:21:55,510 --> 01:21:48,320
science

2238
01:21:57,590 --> 01:21:55,520
and uh and i i sort of try to summarize

2239
01:21:58,550 --> 01:21:57,600
everything we know from science about

2240
01:22:01,830 --> 01:21:58,560
time

2241
01:22:04,950 --> 01:22:01,840
and also the things we don't know uh

2242
01:22:06,709 --> 01:22:04,960
about time from from from science so i

2243
01:22:09,669 --> 01:22:06,719
it's a big part in which i just

2244
01:22:10,870 --> 01:22:09,679
explained at best as i understand

2245
01:22:12,390 --> 01:22:10,880
what we've learned about time for

2246
01:22:14,149 --> 01:22:12,400
special activity from statistical

2247
01:22:16,390 --> 01:22:14,159
mechanics from boltzmann et cetera et

2248
01:22:17,910 --> 01:22:16,400
cetera for quantum gravity

2249
01:22:19,510 --> 01:22:17,920
um

2250
01:22:21,270 --> 01:22:19,520
and then also

2251
01:22:24,390 --> 01:22:21,280
the open questions

2252
01:22:26,070 --> 01:22:24,400
what we think the speculations

2253
01:22:27,430 --> 01:22:26,080
but it's also a book

2254
01:22:29,189 --> 01:22:27,440
when i wrote it

2255
01:22:31,669 --> 01:22:29,199
time touches us right

2256
01:22:32,790 --> 01:22:31,679
we are time is not a neutral thing for

2257
01:22:35,189 --> 01:22:32,800
us because

2258
01:22:37,350 --> 01:22:35,199
it's what makes us living but also what

2259
01:22:39,910 --> 01:22:37,360
we lose time is losing

2260
01:22:42,310 --> 01:22:39,920
so time is something that touches deep

2261
01:22:44,790 --> 01:22:42,320
us inside so it's it's a book that while

2262
01:22:47,990 --> 01:22:44,800
writing it i had constantly this

2263
01:22:50,950 --> 01:22:48,000
emotional aspect about time in mind so

2264
01:22:53,590 --> 01:22:50,960
there's a lot of poetry in the

2265
01:22:55,110 --> 01:22:53,600
versus from horus which is an ancient

2266
01:22:57,750 --> 01:22:55,120
latin philosopher which i love which

2267
01:22:59,669 --> 01:22:57,760
talks about time the time that passes

2268
01:23:00,950 --> 01:22:59,679
the passage of time and there's the last

2269
01:23:03,030 --> 01:23:00,960
chapter in which i talk about death

2270
01:23:05,590 --> 01:23:03,040
which is the ultimate confrontation with

2271
01:23:09,510 --> 01:23:05,600
time that we have in our in our uh in

2272
01:23:11,590 --> 01:23:09,520
our life so it's a it's a book which is

2273
01:23:14,070 --> 01:23:11,600
science but also

2274
01:23:16,550 --> 01:23:14,080
uh our emotional relation with time as

2275
01:23:18,709 --> 01:23:16,560
you um

2276
01:23:21,189 --> 01:23:18,719
since the quotation you mentioned about

2277
01:23:23,350 --> 01:23:21,199
about pain and sore of losing people

2278
01:23:24,950 --> 01:23:23,360
all right so sorry for this that's right

2279
01:23:27,189 --> 01:23:24,960
in chapter 10.

2280
01:23:29,189 --> 01:23:27,199
i think in chapter 10 it's called

2281
01:23:31,350 --> 01:23:29,199
mandolin i don't recall the words that

2282
01:23:34,870 --> 01:23:31,360
came prior to it but it's about the

2283
01:23:36,470 --> 01:23:34,880
eastern mystic from the 100 years 100

2284
01:23:38,790 --> 01:23:36,480
first century sorry second century

2285
01:23:40,950 --> 01:23:38,800
nagarjuna is that correct

2286
01:23:42,310 --> 01:23:40,960
yeah nagarjuna is a chapter well no

2287
01:23:44,229 --> 01:23:42,320
there is a chapter in the guardian in

2288
01:23:46,149 --> 01:23:44,239
helgeland my book on quantum mechanics

2289
01:23:48,790 --> 01:23:46,159
okay so what was being referred to in

2290
01:23:51,270 --> 01:23:48,800
mandolin when oh this person said that

2291
01:23:53,669 --> 01:23:51,280
there is no i

2292
01:23:55,830 --> 01:23:53,679
oh yes yes yes yes that's a famous

2293
01:23:57,830 --> 01:23:55,840
dialect in eastern literature the

2294
01:24:00,390 --> 01:23:57,840
beginning of the buddhist

2295
01:24:04,550 --> 01:24:00,400
philosophy it's a spectacular dialogue

2296
01:24:07,110 --> 01:24:04,560
the dialogue about the chariot right

2297
01:24:09,430 --> 01:24:07,120
who is he speaking to

2298
01:24:12,709 --> 01:24:09,440
uh it's a king king oh i've got the name

2299
01:24:17,270 --> 01:24:14,870
it's it's a it's a it's it's one of the

2300
01:24:19,830 --> 01:24:17,280
topics you want to just discuss the

2301
01:24:21,750 --> 01:24:19,840
nature of i itself

2302
01:24:23,350 --> 01:24:21,760
um but let's go let's keep that for

2303
01:24:25,270 --> 01:24:23,360
later

2304
01:24:26,629 --> 01:24:25,280
so you asked about terminal time yeah

2305
01:24:28,950 --> 01:24:26,639
okay for the people who are listening

2306
01:24:30,790 --> 01:24:28,960
the links to carlo rivelli's book order

2307
01:24:32,550 --> 01:24:30,800
of time as well as his latest book are

2308
01:24:34,149 --> 01:24:32,560
in the description

2309
01:24:36,550 --> 01:24:34,159
and well what was super interesting to

2310
01:24:38,070 --> 01:24:36,560
me is in 2022 i'll start to delve a bit

2311
01:24:40,390 --> 01:24:38,080
more into eastern philosophies i've had

2312
01:24:42,149 --> 01:24:40,400
on pretty much zero although most

2313
01:24:43,270 --> 01:24:42,159
people's philosophies are influenced by

2314
01:24:44,390 --> 01:24:43,280
different parts of the world to some

2315
01:24:47,430 --> 01:24:44,400
degree

2316
01:24:49,590 --> 01:24:47,440
so this it was fun because when i was

2317
01:24:51,430 --> 01:24:49,600
first asking you for an interview

2318
01:24:53,350 --> 01:24:51,440
i used it as an opportunity for me to

2319
01:24:54,629 --> 01:24:53,360
learn loop quantum gravity

2320
01:24:55,750 --> 01:24:54,639
because i've always wanted to learn some

2321
01:24:56,709 --> 01:24:55,760
of that so i started going through your

2322
01:25:00,310 --> 01:24:56,719
lectures

2323
01:25:03,270 --> 01:25:00,320
but then i was sidetracked in the most

2324
01:25:04,790 --> 01:25:03,280
positive manner by order of time i just

2325
01:25:07,350 --> 01:25:04,800
i just i didn't think that you were such

2326
01:25:10,390 --> 01:25:07,360
a philosophical person and i thought boy

2327
01:25:12,629 --> 01:25:10,400
oh boy i don't

2328
01:25:13,830 --> 01:25:12,639
well i don't know of anyone who

2329
01:25:20,550 --> 01:25:13,840
is

2330
01:25:22,310 --> 01:25:20,560
cognitively flexible in that regard you

2331
01:25:24,470 --> 01:25:22,320
mentioned max tag mark but i haven't

2332
01:25:27,110 --> 01:25:24,480
looked him up much so i was just

2333
01:25:30,070 --> 01:25:27,120
i was thrown by that and i was i'm still

2334
01:25:31,270 --> 01:25:30,080
super excited to be speaking with you

2335
01:25:33,590 --> 01:25:31,280
thank you kurt

2336
01:25:35,110 --> 01:25:33,600
um thanks a lot um

2337
01:25:36,950 --> 01:25:35,120
so you want to know about terminal time

2338
01:25:39,270 --> 01:25:36,960
so can you explain what thermal time is

2339
01:25:40,950 --> 01:25:39,280
this is my question and then i head up

2340
01:25:43,910 --> 01:25:40,960
as a note so the conventional logic for

2341
01:25:45,430 --> 01:25:43,920
interpreting this relation is time

2342
01:25:47,990 --> 01:25:45,440
gives you a notion of energy which gives

2343
01:25:49,110 --> 01:25:48,000
you a notion of an a macroscopic state

2344
01:25:50,149 --> 01:25:49,120
now you're saying that this can be

2345
01:25:51,990 --> 01:25:50,159
reversed

2346
01:25:53,990 --> 01:25:52,000
okay now that's so using that as a

2347
01:25:55,510 --> 01:25:54,000
jumping off point and remember that the

2348
01:25:57,189 --> 01:25:55,520
audience understands what entropy and so

2349
01:25:58,470 --> 01:25:57,199
on is

2350
01:26:00,870 --> 01:25:58,480
though if you want to quickly go over

2351
01:26:04,550 --> 01:26:00,880
you're more than welcome to

2352
01:26:12,950 --> 01:26:07,750
um

2353
01:26:13,990 --> 01:26:12,960
uh in understanding time

2354
01:26:15,430 --> 01:26:14,000
i think there are a lot of things we

2355
01:26:16,870 --> 01:26:15,440
have understood

2356
01:26:18,390 --> 01:26:16,880
that time doesn't work for the way we

2357
01:26:20,070 --> 01:26:18,400
usually think about because we have

2358
01:26:22,070 --> 01:26:20,080
understood this with special relativity

2359
01:26:23,510 --> 01:26:22,080
general activity with statistical

2360
01:26:25,350 --> 01:26:23,520
mechanics but then there are some open

2361
01:26:26,390 --> 01:26:25,360
questions

2362
01:26:28,070 --> 01:26:26,400
and

2363
01:26:29,510 --> 01:26:28,080
among the

2364
01:26:31,910 --> 01:26:29,520
open questions

2365
01:26:33,669 --> 01:26:31,920
it's following

2366
01:26:34,629 --> 01:26:33,679
once we go

2367
01:26:37,030 --> 01:26:34,639
to

2368
01:26:38,950 --> 01:26:37,040
a generality relativistic description

2369
01:26:40,629 --> 01:26:38,960
about the world

2370
01:26:42,229 --> 01:26:40,639
um

2371
01:26:44,310 --> 01:26:42,239
the so

2372
01:26:46,550 --> 01:26:44,320
description of the world

2373
01:26:48,390 --> 01:26:46,560
large enough to include the relativistic

2374
01:26:50,629 --> 01:26:48,400
properties of gravity

2375
01:26:53,350 --> 01:26:50,639
then the theory we use

2376
01:26:55,110 --> 01:26:53,360
does not have a lot of variables

2377
01:26:56,790 --> 01:26:55,120
variable things we measure

2378
01:26:58,709 --> 01:26:56,800
but none of this

2379
01:27:00,229 --> 01:26:58,719
is naturally identified as a time

2380
01:27:01,669 --> 01:27:00,239
variable

2381
01:27:03,270 --> 01:27:01,679
that's the point

2382
01:27:05,030 --> 01:27:03,280
and i'm not talking

2383
01:27:07,350 --> 01:27:05,040
for those who are

2384
01:27:09,669 --> 01:27:07,360
more learned among those who

2385
01:27:12,870 --> 01:27:09,679
you guys who listen i'm not talking

2386
01:27:15,030 --> 01:27:12,880
about in a given space time

2387
01:27:16,950 --> 01:27:15,040
which one is a time of course in a given

2388
01:27:18,709 --> 01:27:16,960
space time there's the clocks that

2389
01:27:20,070 --> 01:27:18,719
measure proper time along each line we

2390
01:27:21,830 --> 01:27:20,080
know this time

2391
01:27:24,070 --> 01:27:21,840
but i'm talking about the

2392
01:27:25,669 --> 01:27:24,080
evolution of space-time itself i mean

2393
01:27:28,470 --> 01:27:25,679
the einstein equation

2394
01:27:30,229 --> 01:27:28,480
that evolved for gravity space-time

2395
01:27:32,950 --> 01:27:30,239
matter everything

2396
01:27:35,510 --> 01:27:32,960
in that evolution this evolution is

2397
01:27:39,110 --> 01:27:35,520
given as relative evolution of variables

2398
01:27:40,070 --> 01:27:39,120
and not evolution in time

2399
01:27:42,470 --> 01:27:40,080
uh

2400
01:27:43,669 --> 01:27:42,480
and then case by case we can identify

2401
01:27:46,229 --> 01:27:43,679
say well let's

2402
01:27:48,709 --> 01:27:46,239
call this time

2403
01:27:51,910 --> 01:27:48,719
one one particular variable this works

2404
01:27:55,110 --> 01:27:51,920
um in fact this is the way the world is

2405
01:27:56,870 --> 01:27:55,120
at the level of of of generativity

2406
01:27:59,270 --> 01:27:56,880
and also at the level of a general

2407
01:28:00,870 --> 01:27:59,280
relativistic quantum field for quantum

2408
01:28:02,310 --> 01:28:00,880
gravity but then there is something

2409
01:28:04,390 --> 01:28:02,320
funny

2410
01:28:07,910 --> 01:28:04,400
and that's a question

2411
01:28:10,709 --> 01:28:07,920
in our experience it's very clear

2412
01:28:13,510 --> 01:28:10,719
uh which variable is time it's it's the

2413
01:28:15,750 --> 01:28:13,520
one that clocks are connected to okay

2414
01:28:17,830 --> 01:28:15,760
the time value is completely different

2415
01:28:20,229 --> 01:28:17,840
than the other variables

2416
01:28:21,430 --> 01:28:20,239
profoundly different

2417
01:28:22,390 --> 01:28:21,440
and

2418
01:28:25,110 --> 01:28:22,400
so

2419
01:28:27,590 --> 01:28:25,120
how is it possible that from a theory in

2420
01:28:28,790 --> 01:28:27,600
which no specific variable is temporal

2421
01:28:30,149 --> 01:28:28,800
then

2422
01:28:31,189 --> 01:28:30,159
for us

2423
01:28:32,790 --> 01:28:31,199
uh

2424
01:28:33,910 --> 01:28:32,800
one variable which is the position of

2425
01:28:35,189 --> 01:28:33,920
the clock is definitely completely

2426
01:28:36,950 --> 01:28:35,199
different than the others because it

2427
01:28:38,550 --> 01:28:36,960
distinguishes pass from the future in

2428
01:28:39,750 --> 01:28:38,560
such a way

2429
01:28:41,510 --> 01:28:39,760
so i

2430
01:28:44,149 --> 01:28:41,520
worked on that

2431
01:28:46,470 --> 01:28:44,159
and i wrote some papers several papers

2432
01:28:49,350 --> 01:28:46,480
from that and a key paper with a french

2433
01:28:51,030 --> 01:28:49,360
mathematician field medal alain khon a

2434
01:28:52,950 --> 01:28:51,040
spectacular and brilliant and good

2435
01:28:55,030 --> 01:28:52,960
mathematician

2436
01:28:58,149 --> 01:28:55,040
because we got to this idea

2437
01:29:00,149 --> 01:28:58,159
both of us uh independently in a very

2438
01:29:01,350 --> 01:29:00,159
different path and we wrote this paper

2439
01:29:03,669 --> 01:29:01,360
together

2440
01:29:06,310 --> 01:29:03,679
he came to that from pure mathematics i

2441
01:29:08,470 --> 01:29:06,320
came that from think about physics

2442
01:29:10,550 --> 01:29:08,480
and so the idea is a speculative idea

2443
01:29:13,350 --> 01:29:10,560
i'm not sure is correct uh it's not

2444
01:29:15,830 --> 01:29:13,360
something people agree upon but i i put

2445
01:29:17,750 --> 01:29:15,840
in the book as a as a speculation it's

2446
01:29:19,110 --> 01:29:17,760
something i i think in some sense should

2447
01:29:21,590 --> 01:29:19,120
be right

2448
01:29:23,110 --> 01:29:21,600
um and there is a following

2449
01:29:24,950 --> 01:29:23,120
that

2450
01:29:26,310 --> 01:29:24,960
when we distinguish the time variable

2451
01:29:27,750 --> 01:29:26,320
from the other

2452
01:29:29,990 --> 01:29:27,760
it's because

2453
01:29:31,430 --> 01:29:30,000
of of what peculiar time what is

2454
01:29:33,750 --> 01:29:31,440
peculiar of time that the past is so

2455
01:29:35,830 --> 01:29:33,760
different from the future okay the

2456
01:29:37,350 --> 01:29:35,840
right and left are not different up and

2457
01:29:39,430 --> 01:29:37,360
down are not so different a little bit

2458
01:29:40,870 --> 01:29:39,440
different but we understand that

2459
01:29:42,229 --> 01:29:40,880
uh passive future are completely

2460
01:29:42,950 --> 01:29:42,239
different

2461
01:29:45,189 --> 01:29:42,960
and

2462
01:29:46,790 --> 01:29:45,199
but the big difference the the many

2463
01:29:49,750 --> 01:29:46,800
differences which we can write down but

2464
01:29:51,030 --> 01:29:49,760
the big difference is that entropy grows

2465
01:29:53,910 --> 01:29:51,040
toward the

2466
01:29:55,750 --> 01:29:53,920
future okay and this is a reason

2467
01:29:58,149 --> 01:29:55,760
we remember the pastor not the future

2468
01:30:00,550 --> 01:29:58,159
this is the reason the future feels open

2469
01:30:03,189 --> 01:30:00,560
this is a reason uh uh

2470
01:30:04,709 --> 01:30:03,199
uh if you if you if you sure feel

2471
01:30:07,189 --> 01:30:04,719
backward the moving backward is

2472
01:30:08,070 --> 01:30:07,199
obviously backwards and so on so forth

2473
01:30:10,629 --> 01:30:08,080
so

2474
01:30:12,390 --> 01:30:10,639
what characterize a time direction is

2475
01:30:15,030 --> 01:30:12,400
not mechanics

2476
01:30:18,390 --> 01:30:15,040
is entropy and entropy means statistical

2477
01:30:20,629 --> 01:30:18,400
mechanics and means

2478
01:30:22,629 --> 01:30:20,639
that we're giving a close grain

2479
01:30:24,790 --> 01:30:22,639
description of the world in terms of

2480
01:30:26,950 --> 01:30:24,800
temperature entropy so we have many

2481
01:30:27,910 --> 01:30:26,960
degrees of freedom and we are

2482
01:30:30,790 --> 01:30:27,920
um

2483
01:30:35,750 --> 01:30:30,800
uh

2484
01:30:38,629 --> 01:30:35,760
few of them this is what entropy is

2485
01:30:40,550 --> 01:30:38,639
about so there's something about the

2486
01:30:43,669 --> 01:30:40,560
flow of time which has to do with the

2487
01:30:48,229 --> 01:30:45,669
we don't describe the microphysics we

2488
01:30:50,470 --> 01:30:48,239
have this macroscopic description now if

2489
01:30:52,390 --> 01:30:50,480
it is so

2490
01:30:54,310 --> 01:30:52,400
then

2491
01:30:55,110 --> 01:30:54,320
it's very tempting

2492
01:30:59,830 --> 01:30:55,120
to

2493
01:31:00,870 --> 01:30:59,840
between the flow of time

2494
01:31:03,590 --> 01:31:00,880
and

2495
01:31:05,270 --> 01:31:03,600
the macro physics okay in in the

2496
01:31:06,629 --> 01:31:05,280
following sense

2497
01:31:09,669 --> 01:31:06,639
uh

2498
01:31:12,390 --> 01:31:09,679
we learn in in physics textbook that the

2499
01:31:14,629 --> 01:31:12,400
time passes okay systems automatically

2500
01:31:16,070 --> 01:31:14,639
equilibrate because of the second law of

2501
01:31:17,350 --> 01:31:16,080
thermodynamics so they go toward

2502
01:31:18,709 --> 01:31:17,360
equilibrium

2503
01:31:20,950 --> 01:31:18,719
and when they go where they go to

2504
01:31:22,629 --> 01:31:20,960
equilibrium they go to a state which is

2505
01:31:24,950 --> 01:31:22,639
an equilibrium state and this

2506
01:31:26,790 --> 01:31:24,960
equilibrium state

2507
01:31:29,669 --> 01:31:26,800
is described

2508
01:31:31,510 --> 01:31:29,679
in the physics as one particular state

2509
01:31:33,510 --> 01:31:31,520
in the sense of

2510
01:31:34,870 --> 01:31:33,520
statistical mechanics a probability

2511
01:31:36,470 --> 01:31:34,880
distribution of all possible

2512
01:31:38,310 --> 01:31:36,480
configurations

2513
01:31:41,030 --> 01:31:38,320
okay

2514
01:31:42,310 --> 01:31:41,040
so the logic think of the logic time

2515
01:31:45,990 --> 01:31:42,320
passes

2516
01:31:48,149 --> 01:31:46,000
and this determines a particular state

2517
01:31:49,590 --> 01:31:48,159
now the idea

2518
01:31:50,550 --> 01:31:49,600
alain and i

2519
01:31:52,629 --> 01:31:50,560
uh

2520
01:31:55,750 --> 01:31:52,639
got independently is that maybe this is

2521
01:31:59,270 --> 01:31:57,590
we're getting wrong

2522
01:32:01,990 --> 01:31:59,280
since in the fundamental theory there's

2523
01:32:04,229 --> 01:32:02,000
no preferred time but there are states

2524
01:32:06,229 --> 01:32:04,239
right there states because

2525
01:32:08,870 --> 01:32:06,239
because

2526
01:32:10,229 --> 01:32:08,880
we don't see the details of the world we

2527
01:32:11,669 --> 01:32:10,239
have an approximate description of the

2528
01:32:14,790 --> 01:32:11,679
world so we give a description of the

2529
01:32:17,910 --> 01:32:14,800
world which is a a a statistical state a

2530
01:32:20,470 --> 01:32:17,920
distribution of a possible configuration

2531
01:32:21,750 --> 01:32:20,480
now given a flow of time it

2532
01:32:23,590 --> 01:32:21,760
it

2533
01:32:24,950 --> 01:32:23,600
determines one particular distribution

2534
01:32:27,270 --> 01:32:24,960
maybe we should

2535
01:32:29,350 --> 01:32:27,280
view the other way around given

2536
01:32:31,590 --> 01:32:29,360
a probabilistic distribution of the

2537
01:32:33,669 --> 01:32:31,600
world what we know about the world

2538
01:32:36,870 --> 01:32:33,679
this determines the flow of time you can

2539
01:32:38,149 --> 01:32:36,880
mathematically compute it that way

2540
01:32:40,790 --> 01:32:38,159
from the

2541
01:32:42,310 --> 01:32:40,800
distribution you can do a simple and and

2542
01:32:44,470 --> 01:32:42,320
in our paper we wrote down this

2543
01:32:45,910 --> 01:32:44,480
mathematical passages

2544
01:32:47,189 --> 01:32:45,920
um

2545
01:32:48,950 --> 01:32:47,199
we

2546
01:32:50,950 --> 01:32:48,960
statistical state of the world produces

2547
01:32:51,750 --> 01:32:50,960
a type variable

2548
01:32:57,350 --> 01:32:51,760
and

2549
01:33:00,229 --> 01:32:57,360
anaconda pushed this father

2550
01:33:05,510 --> 01:33:03,990
if you have a quantum mechanical system

2551
01:33:07,669 --> 01:33:05,520
by necessity

2552
01:33:09,350 --> 01:33:07,679
you have some randomness because quantum

2553
01:33:10,870 --> 01:33:09,360
mechanics is randomness because if you

2554
01:33:13,350 --> 01:33:10,880
remember x and p

2555
01:33:16,870 --> 01:33:13,360
you you you don't commute and this no

2556
01:33:19,750 --> 01:33:16,880
commutativity implies some randomness

2557
01:33:22,310 --> 01:33:19,760
so one of the big big mathematical

2558
01:33:23,910 --> 01:33:22,320
results that alan khon has

2559
01:33:27,110 --> 01:33:23,920
obtained

2560
01:33:30,790 --> 01:33:29,430
using this randomness

2561
01:33:33,350 --> 01:33:30,800
he could show

2562
01:33:35,590 --> 01:33:33,360
that any state

2563
01:33:37,350 --> 01:33:35,600
in the sense of quantum mechanical

2564
01:33:40,149 --> 01:33:37,360
states

2565
01:33:41,910 --> 01:33:40,159
determines a flow of time

2566
01:33:44,229 --> 01:33:41,920
and i don't want to enter into the

2567
01:33:46,550 --> 01:33:44,239
complication of const mathematics is for

2568
01:33:49,350 --> 01:33:46,560
neumann algebras complicated stuff

2569
01:33:51,350 --> 01:33:49,360
in some sense this evolution is unique

2570
01:33:52,629 --> 01:33:51,360
in some very peculiar senses evolution

2571
01:33:53,830 --> 01:33:52,639
is unique

2572
01:33:55,270 --> 01:33:53,840
so what khan is saying that

2573
01:33:57,830 --> 01:33:55,280
automatically once you have the

2574
01:33:59,990 --> 01:33:57,840
randomness of quantum mechanics you have

2575
01:34:02,149 --> 01:34:00,000
a time flow

2576
01:34:03,990 --> 01:34:02,159
the terminal time idea is a simpler

2577
01:34:06,390 --> 01:34:04,000
version of that it's just if you don't

2578
01:34:08,870 --> 01:34:06,400
know the details

2579
01:34:11,030 --> 01:34:08,880
your lack of knowledge of the details is

2580
01:34:14,149 --> 01:34:11,040
such that mathematics is sufficient to

2581
01:34:15,590 --> 01:34:14,159
pick up a specific time flow

2582
01:34:18,709 --> 01:34:15,600
okay

2583
01:34:20,470 --> 01:34:18,719
so uh you see if you study general

2584
01:34:22,390 --> 01:34:20,480
relativity

2585
01:34:24,229 --> 01:34:22,400
the question is uh

2586
01:34:25,590 --> 01:34:24,239
uh which one

2587
01:34:26,950 --> 01:34:25,600
of the variables do you want to call

2588
01:34:28,229 --> 01:34:26,960
time dockable

2589
01:34:30,229 --> 01:34:28,239
and the answer is well they all will

2590
01:34:31,910 --> 01:34:30,239
pre-order the same but

2591
01:34:33,990 --> 01:34:31,920
if you don't know the details and you

2592
01:34:35,750 --> 01:34:34,000
have a foggy version there's one which

2593
01:34:37,669 --> 01:34:35,760
is preferred

2594
01:34:39,750 --> 01:34:37,679
and let me give you

2595
01:34:41,990 --> 01:34:39,760
if i have one more minute on this

2596
01:34:44,709 --> 01:34:42,000
question kurt

2597
01:34:48,070 --> 01:34:44,719
a simple version of this story

2598
01:34:50,149 --> 01:34:48,080
um in special relativity

2599
01:34:51,430 --> 01:34:50,159
you have many time variables because if

2600
01:34:52,790 --> 01:34:51,440
you move uh

2601
01:34:54,229 --> 01:34:52,800
if you and i are moving with respect to

2602
01:34:56,470 --> 01:34:54,239
one another we have different lawrence

2603
01:34:59,030 --> 01:34:56,480
type in the lowest information there's t

2604
01:35:00,790 --> 01:34:59,040
and d prime different times right

2605
01:35:02,390 --> 01:35:00,800
they're all the same it's not one is

2606
01:35:03,910 --> 01:35:02,400
better than than another they're all the

2607
01:35:05,189 --> 01:35:03,920
same okay

2608
01:35:06,950 --> 01:35:05,199
but

2609
01:35:09,430 --> 01:35:06,960
suppose you have a cloud

2610
01:35:12,470 --> 01:35:09,440
which is hot they go out in the universe

2611
01:35:15,030 --> 01:35:12,480
and the cloud is hot

2612
01:35:16,550 --> 01:35:15,040
if it is hot

2613
01:35:18,629 --> 01:35:16,560
okay if you have a number of particles

2614
01:35:21,590 --> 01:35:18,639
that they move there's no preferred time

2615
01:35:23,910 --> 01:35:21,600
but if you have a hot cloud this is hot

2616
01:35:25,910 --> 01:35:23,920
and it has a temperature

2617
01:35:29,270 --> 01:35:25,920
which is determined by the fact that it

2618
01:35:31,030 --> 01:35:29,280
gots in equilibrium with itself

2619
01:35:34,790 --> 01:35:31,040
but it gots in equilibrium in one

2620
01:35:36,870 --> 01:35:34,800
lawrence frame not in all lawrence frame

2621
01:35:38,310 --> 01:35:36,880
it's it's an equilibrium in the frame in

2622
01:35:40,070 --> 01:35:38,320
which the

2623
01:35:45,350 --> 01:35:40,080
the cloud as a whole the center of mass

2624
01:35:50,390 --> 01:35:47,510
it's only in this frame that the

2625
01:35:52,470 --> 01:35:50,400
distribution is the distribution is the

2626
01:35:53,750 --> 01:35:52,480
the boltzmann distribution that you

2627
01:35:55,189 --> 01:35:53,760
expect

2628
01:35:57,510 --> 01:35:55,199
from the

2629
01:36:01,030 --> 01:35:57,520
so if you know the distribution if you

2630
01:36:03,350 --> 01:36:01,040
have a macroscopic description of that

2631
01:36:05,350 --> 01:36:03,360
you pick up a time a preferred lawrence

2632
01:36:06,990 --> 01:36:05,360
time

2633
01:36:08,790 --> 01:36:07,000
so you see

2634
01:36:11,189 --> 01:36:08,800
microscopically

2635
01:36:13,750 --> 01:36:11,199
you don't see any preferred time but

2636
01:36:15,430 --> 01:36:13,760
macroscopically is one preferred time

2637
01:36:17,350 --> 01:36:15,440
and the idea is that that's exactly what

2638
01:36:19,830 --> 01:36:17,360
happened in the world i mean we we live

2639
01:36:21,510 --> 01:36:19,840
in a world we interact with the world

2640
01:36:23,350 --> 01:36:21,520
macroscopically

2641
01:36:25,350 --> 01:36:23,360
obviously there is a past in the future

2642
01:36:27,109 --> 01:36:25,360
obviously there is a

2643
01:36:28,790 --> 01:36:27,119
a time direction

2644
01:36:31,590 --> 01:36:28,800
but that's because we use this

2645
01:36:32,790 --> 01:36:31,600
macroscopic variables if we were

2646
01:36:34,149 --> 01:36:32,800
really

2647
01:36:36,709 --> 01:36:34,159
interacting with all the degrees of

2648
01:36:38,709 --> 01:36:36,719
freedom at the level of generativity

2649
01:36:41,350 --> 01:36:38,719
all variables we will be equally

2650
01:36:43,189 --> 01:36:41,360
temporal variables

2651
01:36:44,629 --> 01:36:43,199
okay so let me see if i can understand

2652
01:36:46,229 --> 01:36:44,639
this now you can correct what i'm saying

2653
01:36:48,070 --> 01:36:46,239
time implies energy implies macrostate

2654
01:36:50,870 --> 01:36:48,080
as we talked about before

2655
01:36:52,390 --> 01:36:50,880
and then you can reverse that but then i

2656
01:36:54,950 --> 01:36:52,400
see that as a trade-off between

2657
01:36:57,750 --> 01:36:54,960
precision so if we were more precise we

2658
01:36:59,109 --> 01:36:57,760
wouldn't see time that's where alan

2659
01:37:00,390 --> 01:36:59,119
which i'm going to mispronounce but the

2660
01:37:02,870 --> 01:37:00,400
french mathematician you mentioned the

2661
01:37:05,590 --> 01:37:02,880
fields medalist alan conus that's elaine

2662
01:37:07,350 --> 01:37:05,600
konis that's where he comes in by saying

2663
01:37:09,510 --> 01:37:07,360
clearly you can never be extremely

2664
01:37:11,109 --> 01:37:09,520
precise anyway given quantum mechanics

2665
01:37:12,790 --> 01:37:11,119
so that's why

2666
01:37:15,350 --> 01:37:12,800
quantum mechanically you can just you

2667
01:37:19,109 --> 01:37:15,360
can induce time in that regard says that

2668
01:37:21,030 --> 01:37:19,119
correct okay correct exactly exactly so

2669
01:37:22,229 --> 01:37:21,040
let me stress that it's a beautiful idea

2670
01:37:23,750 --> 01:37:22,239
i love it

2671
01:37:27,510 --> 01:37:23,760
i think it's right but i'm not sure it's

2672
01:37:29,109 --> 01:37:27,520
a very speculative idea so i'm i i

2673
01:37:30,790 --> 01:37:29,119
people have been complaining about that

2674
01:37:34,550 --> 01:37:30,800
and it's i think it's an open question

2675
01:37:35,750 --> 01:37:34,560
what are their complaints to help us so

2676
01:37:37,990 --> 01:37:35,760
um

2677
01:37:39,990 --> 01:37:38,000
the complaint is that the main complaint

2678
01:37:42,710 --> 01:37:40,000
is that it's not

2679
01:37:44,149 --> 01:37:42,720
developed well enough because

2680
01:37:45,109 --> 01:37:44,159
[Music]

2681
01:37:53,430 --> 01:37:45,119
it

2682
01:37:57,590 --> 01:37:55,590
uh but actually

2683
01:37:59,830 --> 01:37:57,600
what we really

2684
01:38:02,790 --> 01:37:59,840
what really

2685
01:38:04,629 --> 01:38:02,800
what we really do in our life when we

2686
01:38:05,910 --> 01:38:04,639
pick up a time variable is precisely

2687
01:38:07,350 --> 01:38:05,920
because it's not an equilibrium

2688
01:38:09,430 --> 01:38:07,360
situation the past is different from the

2689
01:38:13,270 --> 01:38:09,440
future

2690
01:38:14,709 --> 01:38:13,280
so in a sense it would be good to extend

2691
01:38:17,030 --> 01:38:14,719
this uh

2692
01:38:19,109 --> 01:38:17,040
terminal time outside this simple

2693
01:38:20,550 --> 01:38:19,119
equilibrium case in which past the

2694
01:38:21,910 --> 01:38:20,560
future the equilibrium we don't

2695
01:38:23,109 --> 01:38:21,920
distinguish anymore

2696
01:38:25,750 --> 01:38:23,119
um

2697
01:38:28,790 --> 01:38:25,760
uh past and future to to make this story

2698
01:38:30,470 --> 01:38:28,800
really completely coherent

2699
01:38:32,870 --> 01:38:30,480
now lisa mullen has a book on time as

2700
01:38:35,189 --> 01:38:32,880
well i don't recall the name of it if

2701
01:38:36,790 --> 01:38:35,199
you remember you can just say it

2702
01:38:37,990 --> 01:38:36,800
do you recall

2703
01:38:39,750 --> 01:38:38,000
uh

2704
01:38:41,030 --> 01:38:39,760
no i forgot i was talking about that

2705
01:38:42,310 --> 01:38:41,040
maybe the problem with time i don't know

2706
01:38:44,550 --> 01:38:42,320
because plenty of books called the

2707
01:38:46,629 --> 01:38:44,560
problem with at least in my head okay so

2708
01:38:48,390 --> 01:38:46,639
lee smallin has some views on time and i

2709
01:38:51,109 --> 01:38:48,400
recall him saying that it may be that

2710
01:38:53,430 --> 01:38:51,119
time is the most fundamental

2711
01:38:55,270 --> 01:38:53,440
now it might do firstly does that ring

2712
01:38:57,669 --> 01:38:55,280
true to you just that

2713
01:39:00,709 --> 01:38:57,679
okay great that's what lee thinks

2714
01:39:02,629 --> 01:39:00,719
prior to researching about

2715
01:39:04,470 --> 01:39:02,639
you carlo i was just thinking well lee

2716
01:39:06,709 --> 01:39:04,480
smulling and carla bervelli lupone to

2717
01:39:08,390 --> 01:39:06,719
gravity great let me start to research

2718
01:39:11,189 --> 01:39:08,400
the quantum gravity and i was thinking

2719
01:39:12,629 --> 01:39:11,199
that you pretty much agree with lee on

2720
01:39:14,470 --> 01:39:12,639
everything because in my head you both

2721
01:39:16,310 --> 01:39:14,480
were the same as the popularizers of

2722
01:39:19,030 --> 01:39:16,320
loop quantum gravity and developers of

2723
01:39:20,550 --> 01:39:19,040
it however as i read order of time i saw

2724
01:39:22,870 --> 01:39:20,560
there was a huge disconnect between you

2725
01:39:25,990 --> 01:39:22,880
and him on this level so do you mind

2726
01:39:28,149 --> 01:39:26,000
explaining what lee's views are on time

2727
01:39:30,470 --> 01:39:28,159
if you can and then where and why you

2728
01:39:33,270 --> 01:39:30,480
defer

2729
01:39:34,390 --> 01:39:33,280
yeah so uh let me start by saying that

2730
01:39:36,229 --> 01:39:34,400
lee and i

2731
01:39:39,270 --> 01:39:36,239
have been

2732
01:39:41,510 --> 01:39:39,280
i think we did the best uh physics uh

2733
01:39:43,430 --> 01:39:41,520
together my best physics and his best

2734
01:39:45,750 --> 01:39:43,440
physics probably together

2735
01:39:48,229 --> 01:39:46,870
all the

2736
01:39:49,750 --> 01:39:48,239
not just the beginning of flue quantum

2737
01:39:51,750 --> 01:39:49,760
gravity i mean the start of loop going

2738
01:39:53,990 --> 01:39:51,760
to gravity but also the the the

2739
01:39:55,270 --> 01:39:54,000
calculations of the egg values of the

2740
01:39:57,669 --> 01:39:55,280
area and the operator which are key

2741
01:39:59,109 --> 01:39:57,679
results in in quantum gravity and many

2742
01:40:00,310 --> 01:39:59,119
other things

2743
01:40:01,430 --> 01:40:00,320
um

2744
01:40:03,270 --> 01:40:01,440
so

2745
01:40:05,830 --> 01:40:03,280
uh

2746
01:40:07,109 --> 01:40:05,840
we we succeeded repeatedly collaborating

2747
01:40:08,790 --> 01:40:07,119
well and

2748
01:40:10,950 --> 01:40:08,800
we we

2749
01:40:13,669 --> 01:40:10,960
we have always remained very good

2750
01:40:15,669 --> 01:40:13,679
friends all through our life since since

2751
01:40:17,270 --> 01:40:15,679
our young age when we met

2752
01:40:19,270 --> 01:40:17,280
um so

2753
01:40:25,109 --> 01:40:19,280
he's i count him as a

2754
01:40:28,550 --> 01:40:26,709
however in spite of that or maybe

2755
01:40:31,109 --> 01:40:28,560
precisely because of that

2756
01:40:32,310 --> 01:40:31,119
it's not true at all that we have been

2757
01:40:34,629 --> 01:40:32,320
agreeing

2758
01:40:37,109 --> 01:40:34,639
on ideas all the way through

2759
01:40:39,669 --> 01:40:37,119
in fact i would say even the opposite uh

2760
01:40:41,669 --> 01:40:39,679
we've been able to do physics together

2761
01:40:44,550 --> 01:40:41,679
precisely because we disagreed through

2762
01:40:47,189 --> 01:40:44,560
our disagreement interesting uh through

2763
01:40:53,189 --> 01:40:47,199
long discussions no no you're wrong no

2764
01:40:57,830 --> 01:40:54,950
so the beauty of the

2765
01:40:59,590 --> 01:40:57,840
our collaboration for me has been

2766
01:41:01,750 --> 01:40:59,600
being able to learn from one another

2767
01:41:03,590 --> 01:41:01,760
constantly being constantly challenged

2768
01:41:06,470 --> 01:41:03,600
by the other person

2769
01:41:08,550 --> 01:41:06,480
and uh and and through that getting to

2770
01:41:10,470 --> 01:41:08,560
to to to write down equations to do to

2771
01:41:11,189 --> 01:41:10,480
do calculations to put up theories and

2772
01:41:14,310 --> 01:41:11,199
to

2773
01:41:17,030 --> 01:41:14,320
um

2774
01:41:19,990 --> 01:41:17,040
lee also think this way and lee has a

2775
01:41:21,750 --> 01:41:20,000
very nice way of putting this story

2776
01:41:24,790 --> 01:41:21,760
which i love

2777
01:41:26,470 --> 01:41:24,800
once in an interview um

2778
01:41:28,070 --> 01:41:26,480
somebody asked him about the

2779
01:41:30,229 --> 01:41:28,080
disagreement with me and they thought

2780
01:41:33,750 --> 01:41:30,239
for a while and then said well look

2781
01:41:35,990 --> 01:41:33,760
if we had

2782
01:41:38,470 --> 01:41:36,000
had the same ideas

2783
01:41:41,590 --> 01:41:38,480
then one of the two of us would have

2784
01:41:45,590 --> 01:41:43,750
and i think it's a great idea right so

2785
01:41:46,470 --> 01:41:45,600
it's useless somebody who agrees with

2786
01:41:47,910 --> 01:41:46,480
you

2787
01:41:51,109 --> 01:41:47,920
on everything

2788
01:41:52,390 --> 01:41:51,119
so that's a that's the premise um now

2789
01:41:59,109 --> 01:41:52,400
uh

2790
01:42:00,950 --> 01:41:59,119
which has grown out

2791
01:42:02,550 --> 01:42:00,960
in in in the last decade is precisely

2792
01:42:05,590 --> 01:42:02,560
about time

2793
01:42:06,950 --> 01:42:05,600
uh it's not so strong as

2794
01:42:13,350 --> 01:42:06,960
uh

2795
01:42:15,109 --> 01:42:13,360
common

2796
01:42:18,950 --> 01:42:15,119
um

2797
01:42:21,030 --> 01:42:18,960
points that lee and i agree uh i mean i

2798
01:42:22,629 --> 01:42:21,040
i've been quoted often to say time does

2799
01:42:24,229 --> 01:42:22,639
not exist but

2800
01:42:26,390 --> 01:42:24,239
this is easily

2801
01:42:27,590 --> 01:42:26,400
that's a slogan slogans are

2802
01:42:30,310 --> 01:42:27,600
you know you can take it the way that

2803
01:42:32,070 --> 01:42:30,320
they want and it's easily misinterpreted

2804
01:42:34,229 --> 01:42:32,080
time does not exist does not mean that

2805
01:42:36,470 --> 01:42:34,239
we have to think about reality as just

2806
01:42:37,910 --> 01:42:36,480
static nothing happening

2807
01:42:39,830 --> 01:42:37,920
it's the other way around

2808
01:42:43,030 --> 01:42:39,840
i think that uh

2809
01:42:45,109 --> 01:42:43,040
um you know a static reality is time

2810
01:42:47,430 --> 01:42:45,119
passes nothing happened

2811
01:42:48,390 --> 01:42:47,440
but time passes and nothing happened

2812
01:42:50,229 --> 01:42:48,400
um

2813
01:42:52,390 --> 01:42:50,239
i think we have to think about reality

2814
01:42:55,109 --> 01:42:52,400
as a sequence of happenings

2815
01:42:57,030 --> 01:42:55,119
not a set of things

2816
01:42:58,470 --> 01:42:57,040
before we talked about things but if we

2817
01:43:00,470 --> 01:42:58,480
go into relativity into general

2818
01:43:01,750 --> 01:43:00,480
relativity what we actually describe in

2819
01:43:07,430 --> 01:43:01,760
the

2820
01:43:09,270 --> 01:43:07,440
um even an object

2821
01:43:11,750 --> 01:43:09,280
the object we talked about the pen what

2822
01:43:13,990 --> 01:43:11,760
it really is in in my eyes at the light

2823
01:43:15,590 --> 01:43:14,000
of general activity it's a sequence of

2824
01:43:17,030 --> 01:43:15,600
processes there's something happening

2825
01:43:19,510 --> 01:43:17,040
it's happening now and then now and then

2826
01:43:21,350 --> 01:43:19,520
now and now and it's just pluses and

2827
01:43:22,229 --> 01:43:21,360
resemble one another and this is we call

2828
01:43:23,750 --> 01:43:22,239
the pen

2829
01:43:25,830 --> 01:43:23,760
and sorry so

2830
01:43:28,790 --> 01:43:25,840
to interject when you say happenings are

2831
01:43:30,870 --> 01:43:28,800
they the same as space-time events or is

2832
01:43:32,629 --> 01:43:30,880
that com is that different yeah yeah if

2833
01:43:35,830 --> 01:43:32,639
you want uh uh

2834
01:43:36,709 --> 01:43:35,840
an event it's something that is a it's a

2835
01:43:38,870 --> 01:43:36,719
it's just

2836
01:43:41,669 --> 01:43:38,880
limited in space and time and and

2837
01:43:43,030 --> 01:43:41,679
reality is this is a symbol of this okay

2838
01:43:46,950 --> 01:43:43,040
so uh

2839
01:43:52,070 --> 01:43:49,109
where event means a region of space time

2840
01:43:54,390 --> 01:43:52,080
but also means a a something that is

2841
01:43:55,590 --> 01:43:54,400
happening in that regional space time in

2842
01:43:57,510 --> 01:43:55,600
fact

2843
01:44:00,070 --> 01:43:57,520
i think what the reason spray time is is

2844
01:44:01,669 --> 01:44:00,080
just happening right right whatever

2845
01:44:03,189 --> 01:44:01,679
happens in that region that's what the

2846
01:44:04,709 --> 01:44:03,199
regional space time is

2847
01:44:06,310 --> 01:44:04,719
and what happened is that there is a

2848
01:44:07,669 --> 01:44:06,320
field there is a gravitational field

2849
01:44:09,669 --> 01:44:07,679
there is electromagnetic field or

2850
01:44:12,390 --> 01:44:09,679
electrons whatever happens there

2851
01:44:13,830 --> 01:44:12,400
and if there are no electrons and no

2852
01:44:15,990 --> 01:44:13,840
uh electromagnetic field there is still

2853
01:44:17,270 --> 01:44:16,000
the gravitational field and if you take

2854
01:44:18,870 --> 01:44:17,280
away the electromagnetic field there's

2855
01:44:20,550 --> 01:44:18,880
nothing happening there's no that

2856
01:44:21,750 --> 01:44:20,560
reaches place time is not there

2857
01:44:24,310 --> 01:44:21,760
all right

2858
01:44:26,470 --> 01:44:24,320
so this hap this happening view of the

2859
01:44:28,709 --> 01:44:26,480
world is something lee is insisting a

2860
01:44:30,229 --> 01:44:28,719
lot and i also agree with him completely

2861
01:44:32,950 --> 01:44:30,239
100

2862
01:44:35,189 --> 01:44:32,960
we should talk about that this dynamical

2863
01:44:37,270 --> 01:44:35,199
aspect of all the processes not the

2864
01:44:38,310 --> 01:44:37,280
entities in isolation so that's the part

2865
01:44:40,470 --> 01:44:38,320
we agree

2866
01:44:42,310 --> 01:44:40,480
it's a big part

2867
01:44:44,629 --> 01:44:42,320
so all the people who talk about the

2868
01:44:46,830 --> 01:44:44,639
static four-dimensional universe

2869
01:44:49,830 --> 01:44:46,840
frozen time

2870
01:44:52,550 --> 01:44:49,840
um a block universe

2871
01:44:54,790 --> 01:44:52,560
i think it's misleading block universe

2872
01:44:56,629 --> 01:44:54,800
is just a you know a picture in our head

2873
01:44:59,510 --> 01:44:56,639
of an ensemble

2874
01:45:01,669 --> 01:44:59,520
of of events if i think of the story of

2875
01:45:03,430 --> 01:45:01,679
your life kurt

2876
01:45:05,510 --> 01:45:03,440
a block universe story of love lies

2877
01:45:06,950 --> 01:45:05,520
things happened okay it's a symbol of

2878
01:45:09,030 --> 01:45:06,960
happenings good

2879
01:45:12,629 --> 01:45:09,040
so it's the same for the universe

2880
01:45:15,189 --> 01:45:12,639
now where do lee and i disagree

2881
01:45:16,550 --> 01:45:15,199
we disagree about the origin of the

2882
01:45:18,709 --> 01:45:16,560
distinction within the past and the

2883
01:45:20,709 --> 01:45:18,719
future

2884
01:45:22,470 --> 01:45:20,719
that's the disagreement

2885
01:45:24,870 --> 01:45:22,480
lee

2886
01:45:26,550 --> 01:45:24,880
holds on to the idea

2887
01:45:29,350 --> 01:45:26,560
that the past and the future

2888
01:45:32,070 --> 01:45:29,360
intrinsically and profoundly different

2889
01:45:34,149 --> 01:45:32,080
at the sort of fundamental level

2890
01:45:34,950 --> 01:45:34,159
so these happenings are happening from

2891
01:45:38,550 --> 01:45:34,960
the

2892
01:45:40,950 --> 01:45:38,560
something

2893
01:45:43,430 --> 01:45:40,960
the past exists fix it has happened it

2894
01:45:45,910 --> 01:45:43,440
is unchangeable the future is generally

2895
01:45:48,390 --> 01:45:45,920
open ah interesting okay that's a

2896
01:45:51,189 --> 01:45:48,400
disagreement i disagree with that i

2897
01:45:53,350 --> 01:45:51,199
think that uh

2898
01:45:54,950 --> 01:45:53,360
it seems to me that our best physics is

2899
01:45:56,470 --> 01:45:54,960
telling us

2900
01:45:58,950 --> 01:45:56,480
that this

2901
01:46:00,310 --> 01:45:58,960
very vivid difference between the past

2902
01:46:02,149 --> 01:46:00,320
and the future

2903
01:46:04,709 --> 01:46:02,159
is not in the grammar of neutrons

2904
01:46:06,229 --> 01:46:04,719
elementary grammar of nature it only

2905
01:46:08,470 --> 01:46:06,239
comes in

2906
01:46:11,270 --> 01:46:08,480
at the statistical thermodynamical level

2907
01:46:13,430 --> 01:46:11,280
when we have a

2908
01:46:15,109 --> 01:46:13,440
macroscopic description and therefore we

2909
01:46:16,229 --> 01:46:15,119
have entropy and therefore we have

2910
01:46:18,070 --> 01:46:16,239
things you know

2911
01:46:20,470 --> 01:46:18,080
ice melting down

2912
01:46:22,390 --> 01:46:20,480
uh and and and all the reversible

2913
01:46:24,229 --> 01:46:22,400
phenomena the all the irreversible

2914
01:46:26,990 --> 01:46:24,239
phenomena microscopic

2915
01:46:29,430 --> 01:46:27,000
the irreversibility uh

2916
01:46:30,790 --> 01:46:29,440
characterizes the microscopic variables

2917
01:46:32,550 --> 01:46:30,800
there's no irreversibility of the

2918
01:46:34,070 --> 01:46:32,560
microscopic variable

2919
01:46:35,910 --> 01:46:34,080
so the distinction between the past and

2920
01:46:37,669 --> 01:46:35,920
the future in my opinion

2921
01:46:39,030 --> 01:46:37,679
it's only for big things an electron

2922
01:46:41,830 --> 01:46:39,040
doesn't distinguish the past of the

2923
01:46:45,109 --> 01:46:41,840
future an atom does not distinguish the

2924
01:46:47,830 --> 01:46:45,119
past in the future a glass of water

2925
01:46:50,390 --> 01:46:47,840
with ice and water does distinguish

2926
01:46:51,669 --> 01:46:50,400
but the distinction is in the in the

2927
01:46:53,270 --> 01:46:51,679
picture

2928
01:46:56,229 --> 01:46:53,280
in the words

2929
01:46:58,470 --> 01:46:56,239
glass water and eyes it's a macroscopic

2930
01:47:00,390 --> 01:46:58,480
description so that's that's the point

2931
01:47:03,030 --> 01:47:00,400
where we disagree so we

2932
01:47:04,229 --> 01:47:03,040
you know the philosophical idea that

2933
01:47:05,430 --> 01:47:04,239
it's a

2934
01:47:07,109 --> 01:47:05,440
the description of the world is about

2935
01:47:09,030 --> 01:47:07,119
happenings and not about things not

2936
01:47:11,350 --> 01:47:09,040
about static

2937
01:47:12,790 --> 01:47:11,360
we're really on the same ground

2938
01:47:14,629 --> 01:47:12,800
but the

2939
01:47:17,030 --> 01:47:14,639
orientation of this happening is this

2940
01:47:18,310 --> 01:47:17,040
happening oriented in time from the past

2941
01:47:19,990 --> 01:47:18,320
to the future

2942
01:47:21,430 --> 01:47:20,000
is where we disagree i think that it

2943
01:47:22,870 --> 01:47:21,440
comes later on

2944
01:47:24,950 --> 01:47:22,880
at the fundamental level should forget

2945
01:47:26,790 --> 01:47:24,960
about that the the laws just don't

2946
01:47:28,629 --> 01:47:26,800
distinguish between the two

2947
01:47:30,950 --> 01:47:28,639
and lee thinks that in some sense the

2948
01:47:33,430 --> 01:47:30,960
laws distinguish between the two

2949
01:47:35,669 --> 01:47:33,440
so what does he say in response to

2950
01:47:37,430 --> 01:47:35,679
your justification for saying that it's

2951
01:47:39,350 --> 01:47:37,440
the blurriness that generates time or

2952
01:47:42,709 --> 01:47:39,360
the macroscopic states

2953
01:47:48,629 --> 01:47:46,550
they say you be you you be you carlo

2954
01:48:03,830 --> 01:47:48,639
i

2955
01:48:06,550 --> 01:48:03,840
all

2956
01:48:11,590 --> 01:48:06,560
i my reading but he might he might

2957
01:48:16,950 --> 01:48:13,669
the intuition of the difference between

2958
01:48:19,990 --> 01:48:16,960
past and future for him is so strong

2959
01:48:22,390 --> 01:48:20,000
um so he's holding on to this romantic

2960
01:48:23,669 --> 01:48:22,400
idea of ex experiential time and wanting

2961
01:48:29,750 --> 01:48:23,679
to

2962
01:48:31,669 --> 01:48:29,760
okay so that's my reading right

2963
01:48:33,189 --> 01:48:31,679
that's my reading but you know he might

2964
01:48:36,149 --> 01:48:33,199
answer something else

2965
01:48:38,550 --> 01:48:36,159
okay what about janice sorry what about

2966
01:48:39,910 --> 01:48:38,560
julian barber the janice oh julian yeah

2967
01:48:42,149 --> 01:48:39,920
now i haven't had a chance to read his

2968
01:48:44,790 --> 01:48:42,159
book i started reading it but i don't

2969
01:48:45,830 --> 01:48:44,800
know what his theory is i think as far

2970
01:48:48,390 --> 01:48:45,840
as i got was just the history of

2971
01:48:50,550 --> 01:48:48,400
thermodynamics so what is the janus

2972
01:48:52,149 --> 01:48:50,560
point what is his theory on time and

2973
01:48:54,950 --> 01:48:52,159
then obviously compare and contrast with

2974
01:48:59,669 --> 01:48:57,270
so a few coordinates here

2975
01:49:02,629 --> 01:48:59,679
first of all julian it's a fantastic

2976
01:49:04,870 --> 01:49:02,639
historian of science he wrote

2977
01:49:07,669 --> 01:49:04,880
a big thick scholarly book on the

2978
01:49:11,030 --> 01:49:07,679
history of mechanics which is a total

2979
01:49:12,709 --> 01:49:11,040
masterpiece in my opinion

2980
01:49:14,790 --> 01:49:12,719
um

2981
01:49:17,910 --> 01:49:14,800
then he uh

2982
01:49:21,030 --> 01:49:17,920
it's known for two ideas about time one

2983
01:49:23,750 --> 01:49:21,040
uh uh which is uh several

2984
01:49:24,550 --> 01:49:23,760
that's is mostly known for that

2985
01:49:26,470 --> 01:49:24,560
uh

2986
01:49:30,870 --> 01:49:26,480
some time ago um

2987
01:49:32,229 --> 01:49:30,880
his uh idea that we should think uh

2988
01:49:35,109 --> 01:49:32,239
at uh

2989
01:49:37,910 --> 01:49:35,119
at the world in a completely timeless

2990
01:49:39,750 --> 01:49:37,920
way just a distribution probability as

2991
01:49:40,830 --> 01:49:39,760
instantaneous

2992
01:49:42,629 --> 01:49:40,840
um

2993
01:49:45,510 --> 01:49:42,639
configurations

2994
01:49:46,550 --> 01:49:45,520
and recently he came out with a new idea

2995
01:49:49,350 --> 01:49:46,560
uh

2996
01:49:52,629 --> 01:49:49,360
which is this janus point

2997
01:49:54,629 --> 01:49:52,639
so uh i distinguish

2998
01:49:56,870 --> 01:49:54,639
three barbus

2999
01:50:00,149 --> 01:49:56,880
bubbles the bible's the historian of

3000
01:50:03,430 --> 01:50:00,159
physics and which you know chapel as the

3001
01:50:06,070 --> 01:50:03,440
uh french say i mean infinite uh respect

3002
01:50:10,390 --> 01:50:06,080
of him i learned so much from him

3003
01:50:12,390 --> 01:50:10,400
um barbara as the guy denying uh time in

3004
01:50:15,589 --> 01:50:12,400
the sense of uh

3005
01:50:17,830 --> 01:50:15,599
his old book on time and the third bible

3006
01:50:18,950 --> 01:50:17,840
which is about this childish point

3007
01:50:20,470 --> 01:50:18,960
so

3008
01:50:23,669 --> 01:50:20,480
the second one

3009
01:50:25,750 --> 01:50:23,679
i was never convinced much because here

3010
01:50:29,430 --> 01:50:25,760
complicated story about the universe

3011
01:50:32,070 --> 01:50:29,440
being extended in space but not in time

3012
01:50:34,870 --> 01:50:32,080
uh which i did not find convincing i i

3013
01:50:36,149 --> 01:50:34,880
we could go into that uh but this

3014
01:50:38,149 --> 01:50:36,159
we should not talk about that and we

3015
01:50:41,109 --> 01:50:38,159
should talk about the third one and the

3016
01:50:43,189 --> 01:50:41,119
third one this janus point idea uh it's

3017
01:50:45,990 --> 01:50:43,199
indeed uh um

3018
01:50:47,189 --> 01:50:46,000
quite uh um

3019
01:50:49,510 --> 01:50:47,199
intriguing

3020
01:50:52,390 --> 01:50:49,520
he's not the only one who has been

3021
01:50:54,149 --> 01:50:52,400
recently talking about sean carroll has

3022
01:50:56,229 --> 01:50:54,159
also

3023
01:50:58,790 --> 01:50:56,239
considered this idea there is there is

3024
01:51:04,229 --> 01:50:58,800
an increasing attention to this idea

3025
01:51:08,470 --> 01:51:05,589
we are wrong

3026
01:51:10,229 --> 01:51:08,480
when we say that generically

3027
01:51:12,470 --> 01:51:10,239
if you take a system

3028
01:51:14,310 --> 01:51:12,480
generically most solutions of

3029
01:51:17,189 --> 01:51:14,320
integration of motion is in equilibrium

3030
01:51:19,270 --> 01:51:17,199
so there is no past and future

3031
01:51:21,589 --> 01:51:19,280
um

3032
01:51:23,910 --> 01:51:21,599
it's true that if you if you if you put

3033
01:51:26,229 --> 01:51:23,920
the gas in a box and you close it

3034
01:51:27,750 --> 01:51:26,239
with a fixed amount of energy

3035
01:51:29,669 --> 01:51:27,760
uh

3036
01:51:31,990 --> 01:51:29,679
most possible solutions or where the gas

3037
01:51:33,430 --> 01:51:32,000
goes in long time is in equilibrium and

3038
01:51:37,669 --> 01:51:33,440
in the equilibrium the entropy is

3039
01:51:42,709 --> 01:51:39,510
so then we have to say why the entropy

3040
01:51:44,229 --> 01:51:42,719
was low in the past it seems strange

3041
01:51:46,149 --> 01:51:44,239
the point is that the universe is not

3042
01:51:48,310 --> 01:51:46,159
like a gas in a box that's the main

3043
01:51:49,430 --> 01:51:48,320
observation that also sounds like when

3044
01:51:51,750 --> 01:51:49,440
we were talking about that there are

3045
01:51:53,589 --> 01:51:51,760
some problems with applying our limited

3046
01:51:55,030 --> 01:51:53,599
scale physics or when we do experiments

3047
01:51:56,629 --> 01:51:55,040
to the universe as a whole i think

3048
01:51:58,149 --> 01:51:56,639
that's where i got it from was reading

3049
01:52:00,229 --> 01:51:58,159
the janus point he was saying the

3050
01:52:02,070 --> 01:52:00,239
universe is not a box so you can't apply

3051
01:52:05,109 --> 01:52:02,080
the same laws of thermodynamics to the

3052
01:52:06,870 --> 01:52:05,119
universe as a whole yes exactly so but

3053
01:52:09,189 --> 01:52:06,880
there's a specific very very specific

3054
01:52:10,629 --> 01:52:09,199
reason for which you cannot

3055
01:52:13,189 --> 01:52:10,639
that

3056
01:52:15,189 --> 01:52:13,199
there is no equilibrium state because

3057
01:52:17,030 --> 01:52:15,199
if you think about the imagine the

3058
01:52:19,510 --> 01:52:17,040
universe just a bunch of particles in an

3059
01:52:20,870 --> 01:52:19,520
infinite space okay they can spread

3060
01:52:23,510 --> 01:52:20,880
forever

3061
01:52:24,550 --> 01:52:23,520
okay so they never get to real

3062
01:52:26,470 --> 01:52:24,560
uh

3063
01:52:28,830 --> 01:52:26,480
to real equilibrium

3064
01:52:30,709 --> 01:52:28,840
so let's consider one possible

3065
01:52:32,870 --> 01:52:30,719
configuration okay

3066
01:52:35,030 --> 01:52:32,880
of this particle okay

3067
01:52:36,790 --> 01:52:35,040
a generic one they would just move

3068
01:52:39,350 --> 01:52:36,800
somehow maybe they come close at some

3069
01:52:40,629 --> 01:52:39,360
point and then they disperse

3070
01:52:43,510 --> 01:52:40,639
so if you look at the future they

3071
01:52:45,030 --> 01:52:43,520
disperse if you come back there's some

3072
01:52:47,990 --> 01:52:45,040
moment in which they're closer and then

3073
01:52:50,790 --> 01:52:48,000
they disperse again

3074
01:52:52,229 --> 01:52:50,800
so the entropy in that configuration

3075
01:52:55,189 --> 01:52:52,239
okay

3076
01:52:56,629 --> 01:52:55,199
it's up goes to a minimum and then grows

3077
01:52:58,950 --> 01:52:56,639
of course there's no preferred direction

3078
01:53:00,310 --> 01:52:58,960
of time because you know both directions

3079
01:53:02,550 --> 01:53:00,320
disperse

3080
01:53:04,390 --> 01:53:02,560
but there's a minimum

3081
01:53:05,910 --> 01:53:04,400
so if you're on one side the entropy is

3082
01:53:07,109 --> 01:53:05,920
growing like that if you're on the other

3083
01:53:12,070 --> 01:53:07,119
side

3084
01:53:13,990 --> 01:53:12,080
of course the entropy is growing right

3085
01:53:16,310 --> 01:53:14,000
if think a mountain

3086
01:53:17,990 --> 01:53:16,320
any mountains it has you know one

3087
01:53:20,149 --> 01:53:18,000
direction which is down and the other

3088
01:53:21,750 --> 01:53:20,159
direction which is up so generically

3089
01:53:23,990 --> 01:53:21,760
there's always one direction down one

3090
01:53:26,709 --> 01:53:24,000
direction up

3091
01:53:28,790 --> 01:53:26,719
so the idea is well maybe we got

3092
01:53:30,470 --> 01:53:28,800
confused about the model of the gas in

3093
01:53:32,950 --> 01:53:30,480
the box and the equilibrium forget the

3094
01:53:36,229 --> 01:53:32,960
equilibrium maybe the right way is

3095
01:53:39,669 --> 01:53:36,239
thinking that generically uh

3096
01:53:41,189 --> 01:53:39,679
histories possible history of the world

3097
01:53:43,350 --> 01:53:41,199
uh

3098
01:53:44,950 --> 01:53:43,360
evolved in some way and necessarily

3099
01:53:47,189 --> 01:53:44,960
there is one point which is minimal

3100
01:53:48,790 --> 01:53:47,199
entropy and then it goes one side and

3101
01:53:50,310 --> 01:53:48,800
the other this is the core updating

3102
01:53:52,629 --> 01:53:50,320
maybe i'm oversimplifying it a little

3103
01:53:55,109 --> 01:53:52,639
bit but that's a coral idea

3104
01:53:57,030 --> 01:53:55,119
so um

3105
01:54:01,750 --> 01:53:57,040
there are some

3106
01:54:04,149 --> 01:54:01,760
possible doubts i'm not sure is

3107
01:54:07,430 --> 01:54:04,159
it's really a solution of the

3108
01:54:09,189 --> 01:54:07,440
of of the end of of which problem or the

3109
01:54:10,229 --> 01:54:09,199
problem why the entropy is low in the

3110
01:54:11,589 --> 01:54:10,239
past

3111
01:54:14,550 --> 01:54:11,599
this you know

3112
01:54:16,470 --> 01:54:14,560
why the time is oriented because in the

3113
01:54:18,470 --> 01:54:16,480
in the past it was low entropy so why in

3114
01:54:21,430 --> 01:54:18,480
the past of the slow entropy

3115
01:54:23,430 --> 01:54:21,440
that's an attempt to answer that

3116
01:54:25,510 --> 01:54:23,440
question

3117
01:54:26,950 --> 01:54:25,520
there is something ringing very

3118
01:54:29,430 --> 01:54:26,960
interesting and i think there's a

3119
01:54:31,750 --> 01:54:29,440
discussion going on right now

3120
01:54:33,030 --> 01:54:31,760
among theoretical physicists and

3121
01:54:34,629 --> 01:54:33,040
philosophers

3122
01:54:37,109 --> 01:54:34,639
uh on

3123
01:54:39,510 --> 01:54:37,119
should we buy this argument is it

3124
01:54:40,790 --> 01:54:39,520
correct um i'm interested in the

3125
01:54:43,669 --> 01:54:40,800
discussion

3126
01:54:44,790 --> 01:54:43,679
and i i hope that in some years it will

3127
01:54:47,030 --> 01:54:44,800
clean up

3128
01:54:47,990 --> 01:54:47,040
namely yes that's a good way of of

3129
01:54:50,550 --> 01:54:48,000
thinking

3130
01:54:52,310 --> 01:54:50,560
about uh why entropy was low in the past

3131
01:54:53,350 --> 01:54:52,320
one direction which is the one we call

3132
01:54:54,790 --> 01:54:53,360
the past

3133
01:54:56,550 --> 01:54:54,800
uh or

3134
01:54:58,550 --> 01:54:56,560
uh no come on we're getting confused

3135
01:55:01,189 --> 01:54:58,560
about probabilities here

3136
01:55:03,430 --> 01:55:01,199
you're it's you're super tissually

3137
01:55:07,189 --> 01:55:03,440
squeezing in some some

3138
01:55:10,070 --> 01:55:07,199
some some intuition which is not correct

3139
01:55:10,870 --> 01:55:10,080
i i don't know it's a it's it's um

3140
01:55:12,470 --> 01:55:10,880
it's

3141
01:55:13,669 --> 01:55:12,480
relatively recent

3142
01:55:18,790 --> 01:55:13,679
that

3143
01:55:20,470 --> 01:55:18,800
and uh i'm i'm open to to this idea i

3144
01:55:22,229 --> 01:55:20,480
found it interesting

3145
01:55:24,229 --> 01:55:22,239
this minimum point does he say that's

3146
01:55:25,910 --> 01:55:24,239
the big bang or does the big bang happen

3147
01:55:28,390 --> 01:55:25,920
at somewhere on the up so it's still

3148
01:55:30,310 --> 01:55:28,400
relatively yeah in a sense that in a

3149
01:55:32,629 --> 01:55:30,320
sense that's what's called the janus

3150
01:55:36,629 --> 01:55:32,639
point because genesis is god

3151
01:55:39,910 --> 01:55:36,639
in in rome it's it's latin god

3152
01:55:42,390 --> 01:55:39,920
um which is the god of the doors of the

3153
01:55:44,470 --> 01:55:42,400
of the change of the year it has two two

3154
01:55:46,790 --> 01:55:44,480
faces it was always

3155
01:55:48,629 --> 01:55:46,800
represented with a head with two faces

3156
01:55:50,709 --> 01:55:48,639
one face is this way one face is the

3157
01:55:52,950 --> 01:55:50,719
other way so the janus point is the

3158
01:55:55,030 --> 01:55:52,960
point where the future you know the one

3159
01:55:56,310 --> 01:55:55,040
future this way one future that way

3160
01:55:57,910 --> 01:55:56,320
because uh

3161
01:55:59,589 --> 01:55:57,920
the future is determined by end to the

3162
01:56:02,310 --> 01:55:59,599
glowing so this is the minimum of the

3163
01:56:04,390 --> 01:56:02,320
entropy so entropy goes this way and it

3164
01:56:06,629 --> 01:56:04,400
goes this way so whoever is here or

3165
01:56:07,990 --> 01:56:06,639
whenever you are here you see the future

3166
01:56:10,709 --> 01:56:08,000
this way whenever here you see the

3167
01:56:12,470 --> 01:56:10,719
future this way so you always see the

3168
01:56:14,550 --> 01:56:12,480
right the big bang in the past right

3169
01:56:16,709 --> 01:56:14,560
that's what you call the best yeah

3170
01:56:17,830 --> 01:56:16,719
interesting interesting okay now to

3171
01:56:19,830 --> 01:56:17,840
wolfram

3172
01:56:21,270 --> 01:56:19,840
which we can take out so don't worry

3173
01:56:24,070 --> 01:56:21,280
do you have any

3174
01:56:26,870 --> 01:56:24,080
thoughts on wolfram's model critiques

3175
01:56:29,430 --> 01:56:27,910
what do you find interesting when you

3176
01:56:31,030 --> 01:56:29,440
find out interesting convincing not

3177
01:56:32,550 --> 01:56:31,040
convincing

3178
01:56:35,270 --> 01:56:32,560
um

3179
01:56:35,280 --> 01:56:39,229
i am not uh

3180
01:56:44,790 --> 01:56:40,870
overexcited

3181
01:56:51,109 --> 01:56:44,800
by the idea that a simple classical

3182
01:56:55,990 --> 01:56:53,589
microscopical model

3183
01:56:57,669 --> 01:56:56,000
could

3184
01:56:59,830 --> 01:56:57,679
you reproduce

3185
01:57:04,709 --> 01:56:59,840
the

3186
01:57:06,229 --> 01:57:04,719
that that we see uh why do you call it a

3187
01:57:07,990 --> 01:57:06,239
classical model

3188
01:57:11,750 --> 01:57:08,000
because it's definite the hypergraph is

3189
01:57:16,550 --> 01:57:14,550
uh it's classically in the sense that uh

3190
01:57:17,830 --> 01:57:16,560
uh you can view this as evolution in

3191
01:57:20,070 --> 01:57:17,840
time and at

3192
01:57:22,550 --> 01:57:20,080
each specific steps moment there are

3193
01:57:24,870 --> 01:57:22,560
there are steps uh the fundamental

3194
01:57:27,830 --> 01:57:24,880
variables which have a

3195
01:57:30,550 --> 01:57:27,840
a unique value so in that sense

3196
01:57:32,629 --> 01:57:30,560
is classical quantum mechanics

3197
01:57:34,229 --> 01:57:32,639
variables don't don't have a specific

3198
01:57:36,229 --> 01:57:34,239
value

3199
01:57:38,470 --> 01:57:36,239
um

3200
01:57:40,310 --> 01:57:38,480
i think that to

3201
01:57:42,550 --> 01:57:40,320
from here

3202
01:57:45,109 --> 01:57:42,560
to reconstruct the complexity of quantum

3203
01:57:48,550 --> 01:57:45,119
mechanics in full

3204
01:57:50,310 --> 01:57:48,560
has not been done yet i have not seen it

3205
01:57:53,669 --> 01:57:50,320
uh yet

3206
01:57:54,709 --> 01:57:53,679
and uh i i i doubt that one could

3207
01:57:58,310 --> 01:57:54,719
actually

3208
01:58:00,950 --> 01:57:58,320
uh do it unless i see it in in detail

3209
01:58:01,750 --> 01:58:00,960
there are aspects of quantum mechanics

3210
01:58:06,709 --> 01:58:01,760
um

3211
01:58:08,790 --> 01:58:06,719
like those uh captured by uh coconut

3212
01:58:09,830 --> 01:58:08,800
spectre theorem

3213
01:58:13,589 --> 01:58:09,840
uh

3214
01:58:16,149 --> 01:58:13,599
or by the bell inequalities

3215
01:58:18,709 --> 01:58:16,159
which are very hard to reproduce this

3216
01:58:22,070 --> 01:58:18,719
way notoriously very hard to reproduce

3217
01:58:24,629 --> 01:58:22,080
this way so um

3218
01:58:26,229 --> 01:58:24,639
one might copy some aspect of quantum

3219
01:58:27,910 --> 01:58:26,239
mechanics

3220
01:58:30,229 --> 01:58:27,920
uh

3221
01:58:31,750 --> 01:58:30,239
i i haven't seen

3222
01:58:32,830 --> 01:58:31,760
the full prediction of quantum mechanics

3223
01:58:35,830 --> 01:58:32,840
coming out

3224
01:58:37,430 --> 01:58:35,840
yet what about for general relativity i

3225
01:58:39,030 --> 01:58:37,440
don't know if you've heard the claims or

3226
01:58:42,149 --> 01:58:39,040
read the paper

3227
01:58:43,669 --> 01:58:42,159
that the hypergraph model can reproduce

3228
01:58:45,750 --> 01:58:43,679
and you can tell me yeah just so you

3229
01:58:47,589 --> 01:58:45,760
know my naive assessment

3230
01:58:49,750 --> 01:58:47,599
i believe what they do is an adm

3231
01:58:51,430 --> 01:58:49,760
decomposition at some point and so

3232
01:58:53,350 --> 01:58:51,440
whenever i hear that

3233
01:58:55,589 --> 01:58:53,360
it to me okay so you're foliating so

3234
01:58:57,189 --> 01:58:55,599
then you have a preferred time and for

3235
01:58:59,669 --> 01:58:57,199
some reason that

3236
01:59:01,589 --> 01:58:59,679
i'm averse to that because space time to

3237
01:59:03,669 --> 01:59:01,599
me shouldn't be able to at least

3238
01:59:05,109 --> 01:59:03,679
generically it's not able to be foliated

3239
01:59:06,709 --> 01:59:05,119
but i don't know if that's if that's

3240
01:59:08,629 --> 01:59:06,719
just my own personal taste and i should

3241
01:59:10,709 --> 01:59:08,639
or if that's an actual argument against

3242
01:59:11,830 --> 01:59:10,719
or for it okay this is your personal

3243
01:59:18,070 --> 01:59:11,840
taste

3244
01:59:20,790 --> 01:59:18,080
but it's not an argument because

3245
01:59:23,990 --> 01:59:20,800
if it was possible to derive

3246
01:59:25,830 --> 01:59:24,000
uh all the

3247
01:59:27,350 --> 01:59:25,840
all of the theory

3248
01:59:29,109 --> 01:59:27,360
from a completely different point of

3249
01:59:30,709 --> 01:59:29,119
view namely not the point of view of

3250
01:59:32,550 --> 01:59:30,719
general covariance not the point of view

3251
01:59:33,589 --> 01:59:32,560
of einstein but from the point of view

3252
01:59:38,070 --> 01:59:33,599
of

3253
01:59:38,080 --> 01:59:43,510
then okay we would have to confront that

3254
01:59:45,750 --> 01:59:44,870
but once again

3255
01:59:47,990 --> 01:59:45,760
um

3256
01:59:48,790 --> 01:59:48,000
there's some aspect of generativity

3257
01:59:50,709 --> 01:59:48,800
which

3258
01:59:51,669 --> 01:59:50,719
has been recovered

3259
01:59:54,149 --> 01:59:51,679
well

3260
01:59:56,830 --> 01:59:54,159
i i i tried to read some of the papers

3261
01:59:59,270 --> 01:59:56,840
over the copy of general relativity

3262
02:00:01,510 --> 01:59:59,280
um you know

3263
02:00:02,870 --> 02:00:01,520
it's

3264
02:00:06,149 --> 02:00:02,880
if you're something

3265
02:00:07,830 --> 02:00:06,159
geometrical and you go at large scale uh

3266
02:00:10,870 --> 02:00:07,840
generativity it's uh

3267
02:00:14,629 --> 02:00:10,880
come up it's not too hard to

3268
02:00:15,589 --> 02:00:14,639
uh to come out with uh uh with the icing

3269
02:00:16,629 --> 02:00:15,599
equations

3270
02:00:18,870 --> 02:00:16,639
uh

3271
02:00:22,550 --> 02:00:18,880
but once again this is not full

3272
02:00:25,589 --> 02:00:22,560
generativity uh yet and if it is food

3273
02:00:28,070 --> 02:00:25,599
generativity it would predict definitely

3274
02:00:29,189 --> 02:00:28,080
corrections to generativity

3275
02:00:30,149 --> 02:00:29,199
uh

3276
02:00:32,550 --> 02:00:30,159
which

3277
02:00:33,669 --> 02:00:32,560
we would be testable

3278
02:00:37,910 --> 02:00:33,679
okay

3279
02:00:43,830 --> 02:00:40,709
this testing namely that generativity is

3280
02:00:46,629 --> 02:00:43,840
factually wrong on some short scale

3281
02:00:47,669 --> 02:00:46,639
and and we see the discrepancy

3282
02:00:50,470 --> 02:00:47,679
um

3283
02:00:53,109 --> 02:00:50,480
i would say well this is a

3284
02:00:56,790 --> 02:00:53,119
more complicated way of saying the same

3285
02:00:58,310 --> 02:00:56,800
story which it's distinguishable

3286
02:01:00,310 --> 02:00:58,320
and it's based on different principles

3287
02:01:01,990 --> 02:01:00,320
which are not the ones which seem to be

3288
02:01:03,830 --> 02:01:02,000
implementing the world namely in the

3289
02:01:05,669 --> 02:01:03,840
world it seems to be that it's another

3290
02:01:06,790 --> 02:01:05,679
reference frame as you say there is no

3291
02:01:09,109 --> 02:01:06,800
preferred for

3292
02:01:09,910 --> 02:01:09,119
foliation as you say so that's the kind

3293
02:01:11,910 --> 02:01:09,920
of things we have learned from

3294
02:01:13,430 --> 02:01:11,920
generativity so why do we have to give

3295
02:01:16,229 --> 02:01:13,440
them up

3296
02:01:20,790 --> 02:01:18,310
you know let's go to copernicus once

3297
02:01:23,350 --> 02:01:20,800
again after copernicus um

3298
02:01:25,669 --> 02:01:23,360
did his model it it seemed to work very

3299
02:01:27,589 --> 02:01:25,679
well on something one thing it did work

3300
02:01:29,750 --> 02:01:27,599
very well is that if you if you make the

3301
02:01:32,149 --> 02:01:29,760
other planets go around the sun

3302
02:01:35,030 --> 02:01:32,159
uh you understand why

3303
02:01:36,629 --> 02:01:35,040
uh the the other planets have a feature

3304
02:01:38,070 --> 02:01:36,639
of the emotion which have a period of

3305
02:01:39,350 --> 02:01:38,080
one year

3306
02:01:42,229 --> 02:01:39,360
because they go around the sun so of

3307
02:01:45,510 --> 02:01:43,510
but the

3308
02:01:47,589 --> 02:01:45,520
strongly counter-intuitive things was

3309
02:01:48,390 --> 02:01:47,599
the earth's move

3310
02:01:53,350 --> 02:01:48,400
so

3311
02:01:55,750 --> 02:01:53,360
greatest astronomer uh

3312
02:01:57,669 --> 02:01:55,760
that uh you know kepler used his data

3313
02:01:59,589 --> 02:01:57,679
for for doing his work

3314
02:02:01,589 --> 02:01:59,599
ticklebride came out with a system which

3315
02:02:04,070 --> 02:02:01,599
is called the ticonic system the system

3316
02:02:07,669 --> 02:02:04,080
of t cobra which was intermediate

3317
02:02:10,229 --> 02:02:07,679
between um copernicus and uh

3318
02:02:11,350 --> 02:02:10,239
america uh and ptolemy which was that

3319
02:02:12,790 --> 02:02:11,360
the earth is the center of the universe

3320
02:02:15,350 --> 02:02:12,800
the earth is fixed so there's nothing

3321
02:02:16,870 --> 02:02:15,360
counterintuitive the sun goes around

3322
02:02:19,750 --> 02:02:16,880
and all the other problems go around the

3323
02:02:21,589 --> 02:02:19,760
sun yeah it's brilliant idea if you want

3324
02:02:24,070 --> 02:02:21,599
right okay you get the

3325
02:02:26,310 --> 02:02:24,080
the cake and and you eat it too so you

3326
02:02:29,830 --> 02:02:26,320
get advantage of copernicus without the

3327
02:02:32,790 --> 02:02:29,840
concept of difficulty of copernicus

3328
02:02:35,430 --> 02:02:32,800
so in a sense it was to try to recover

3329
02:02:37,109 --> 02:02:35,440
the advantage of copernican staying with

3330
02:02:40,070 --> 02:02:37,119
the old

3331
02:02:41,669 --> 02:02:40,080
mind frame which is the earth is fixed

3332
02:02:44,229 --> 02:02:41,679
okay

3333
02:02:47,030 --> 02:02:44,239
is it coherent yes it's clearance has it

3334
02:02:48,870 --> 02:02:47,040
been historically useful no

3335
02:02:51,669 --> 02:02:48,880
i mean we would have never got to newton

3336
02:02:53,430 --> 02:02:51,679
or kepler or galileo and and modern

3337
02:02:56,790 --> 02:02:53,440
physics was that way

3338
02:02:59,589 --> 02:02:56,800
the point about capital was precisely

3339
02:03:01,270 --> 02:02:59,599
that if we give up this moving if we get

3340
02:03:02,629 --> 02:03:01,280
out of this

3341
02:03:04,950 --> 02:03:02,639
mind frame

3342
02:03:06,310 --> 02:03:04,960
of we are static

3343
02:03:07,510 --> 02:03:06,320
we have a better way of understanding

3344
02:03:09,669 --> 02:03:07,520
the world

3345
02:03:10,950 --> 02:03:09,679
so tico was completely wrong

3346
02:03:12,310 --> 02:03:10,960
scientifically and of course we

3347
02:03:14,470 --> 02:03:12,320
recognize it completely wrong

3348
02:03:16,470 --> 02:03:14,480
scientifically right

3349
02:03:18,310 --> 02:03:16,480
so i think that when we have learned

3350
02:03:20,950 --> 02:03:18,320
general relativity or when we learn

3351
02:03:22,390 --> 02:03:20,960
special relativity of course we can you

3352
02:03:25,109 --> 02:03:22,400
know by being

3353
02:03:27,669 --> 02:03:25,119
super smart like tico arrange thing that

3354
02:03:30,070 --> 02:03:27,679
we stay with the old conceptual thing

3355
02:03:31,910 --> 02:03:30,080
and you recover the same thing with some

3356
02:03:34,070 --> 02:03:31,920
some technicalities

3357
02:03:36,870 --> 02:03:34,080
but we don't learn more about the world

3358
02:03:39,270 --> 02:03:36,880
we just hang on yourself to

3359
02:03:40,870 --> 02:03:39,280
all thinking and don't accept the new

3360
02:03:43,350 --> 02:03:40,880
thinking which is the one that

3361
02:03:44,870 --> 02:03:43,360
allows to go faster the new thinking is

3362
02:03:47,109 --> 02:03:44,880
move forget it

3363
02:03:48,470 --> 02:03:47,119
forget this intuition that my ground is

3364
02:03:50,069 --> 02:03:48,480
not moving

3365
02:03:51,910 --> 02:03:50,079
so it's the same with this

3366
02:03:54,950 --> 02:03:51,920
reconstruction quantum mechanics for

3367
02:03:57,350 --> 02:03:54,960
underlying basically classical system i

3368
02:03:59,030 --> 02:03:57,360
don't believe that it's impossible i

3369
02:04:00,709 --> 02:03:59,040
haven't seen it yet but i

3370
02:04:01,990 --> 02:04:00,719
suppose it's possible

3371
02:04:03,990 --> 02:04:02,000
but

3372
02:04:06,470 --> 02:04:04,000
is it do we believe that this

3373
02:04:08,709 --> 02:04:06,480
pushing them ahead is telling us that

3374
02:04:11,750 --> 02:04:08,719
really really nature

3375
02:04:13,430 --> 02:04:11,760
in its the death it's like we thought

3376
02:04:15,589 --> 02:04:13,440
yesterday

3377
02:04:17,430 --> 02:04:15,599
come on nature it is death it's like we

3378
02:04:18,790 --> 02:04:17,440
think today not like we thought yes

3379
02:04:20,709 --> 02:04:18,800
there's moves

3380
02:04:21,990 --> 02:04:20,719
is this what you

3381
02:04:24,310 --> 02:04:22,000
in your mind in the back your mind

3382
02:04:27,270 --> 02:04:24,320
perhaps think of lee smolin's idea of

3383
02:04:29,270 --> 02:04:27,280
time like lee you are trying to hold on

3384
02:04:30,550 --> 02:04:29,280
yeah it's the same story it's exactly

3385
02:04:33,189 --> 02:04:30,560
the same story

3386
02:04:36,830 --> 02:04:33,199
so take the take the discovery seriously

3387
02:04:42,870 --> 02:04:40,629
when he did special relativity

3388
02:04:44,149 --> 02:04:42,880
there were this maxwell equations

3389
02:04:46,950 --> 02:04:44,159
um

3390
02:04:49,669 --> 02:04:46,960
that seemed to contradict

3391
02:04:50,629 --> 02:04:49,679
galilean relativity

3392
02:04:52,790 --> 02:04:50,639
uh

3393
02:04:54,310 --> 02:04:52,800
which one is wrong

3394
02:04:56,310 --> 02:04:54,320
einstein

3395
02:04:58,709 --> 02:04:56,320
answer is neither

3396
02:04:59,669 --> 02:04:58,719
they're both right believe the physics

3397
02:05:01,830 --> 02:04:59,679
right

3398
02:05:04,149 --> 02:05:01,840
uh and and and when i said the general

3399
02:05:05,669 --> 02:05:04,159
activity he took this idea of maxwell

3400
02:05:08,149 --> 02:05:05,679
the fields

3401
02:05:09,830 --> 02:05:08,159
and he applied to to gravity so he

3402
02:05:11,910 --> 02:05:09,840
believed the physics believe the new

3403
02:05:13,030 --> 02:05:11,920
results that work those are empirically

3404
02:05:14,709 --> 02:05:13,040
con

3405
02:05:16,629 --> 02:05:14,719
don't believe your intuition believe

3406
02:05:18,950 --> 02:05:16,639
that it works

3407
02:05:20,870 --> 02:05:18,960
what if sean carroll who is a proponent

3408
02:05:22,790 --> 02:05:20,880
of the many world says to you carlo

3409
02:05:25,270 --> 02:05:22,800
you're trying to hold you say that the

3410
02:05:27,189 --> 02:05:25,280
many worlds is distasteful because look

3411
02:05:29,030 --> 02:05:27,199
the cost yeah but you're calling it a

3412
02:05:31,189 --> 02:05:29,040
cost because you're trying to hold on to

3413
02:05:37,990 --> 02:05:31,199
something else so what if sean says that

3414
02:05:42,470 --> 02:05:39,270
um

3415
02:05:43,189 --> 02:05:42,480
i i am in a discussion with with sean on

3416
02:05:50,149 --> 02:05:43,199
on

3417
02:05:53,109 --> 02:05:50,159
uh take the many world

3418
02:05:55,270 --> 02:05:53,119
interpretations seriously he likes it

3419
02:05:56,629 --> 02:05:55,280
but he likes a particularly radical

3420
02:05:58,390 --> 02:05:56,639
version

3421
02:06:00,470 --> 02:05:58,400
of the um

3422
02:06:02,629 --> 02:06:00,480
of the latino many volunteers if it's

3423
02:06:05,589 --> 02:06:02,639
not radical enough already right

3424
02:06:08,069 --> 02:06:05,599
he yeah he he called it the mag dog he

3425
02:06:09,270 --> 02:06:08,079
called it the mad dog

3426
02:06:13,510 --> 02:06:09,280
uh

3427
02:06:16,149 --> 02:06:13,520
many world interpretation the mad dog

3428
02:06:18,709 --> 02:06:16,159
in which there is only hilbert space and

3429
02:06:21,350 --> 02:06:18,719
state and hamiltonian nothing else so

3430
02:06:22,790 --> 02:06:21,360
you want to extract everything from

3431
02:06:25,510 --> 02:06:22,800
from that

3432
02:06:29,270 --> 02:06:25,520
uh i'm i'm

3433
02:06:31,030 --> 02:06:29,280
i i'm debating that i i think it's not

3434
02:06:33,430 --> 02:06:31,040
going to work in general activity for

3435
02:06:35,589 --> 02:06:33,440
this and that reason i mean he has he

3436
02:06:37,109 --> 02:06:35,599
has an answer which is yeah you know

3437
02:06:39,189 --> 02:06:37,119
you have this terminal time i can use

3438
02:06:40,950 --> 02:06:39,199
your term of time to make it answer so

3439
02:06:43,270 --> 02:06:40,960
he's trying to use my own ideas against

3440
02:06:49,189 --> 02:06:45,669
um

3441
02:06:51,669 --> 02:06:49,199
uh what would he say uh to me well i

3442
02:06:55,189 --> 02:06:51,679
think that there is a he belongs to a

3443
02:06:59,189 --> 02:06:57,189
a group of physicists

3444
02:07:01,750 --> 02:06:59,199
that are very much in love with many

3445
02:07:03,669 --> 02:07:01,760
world because they find it very simple

3446
02:07:05,030 --> 02:07:03,679
and and straightforward it's just this

3447
02:07:08,390 --> 02:07:05,040
wave function

3448
02:07:09,270 --> 02:07:08,400
extract

3449
02:07:15,589 --> 02:07:09,280
um

3450
02:07:18,390 --> 02:07:17,510
i i never heard

3451
02:07:20,310 --> 02:07:18,400
him

3452
02:07:21,669 --> 02:07:20,320
um

3453
02:07:23,669 --> 02:07:21,679
telling me what he thinking the

3454
02:07:25,910 --> 02:07:23,679
relational interpretation is is wrong

3455
02:07:28,790 --> 02:07:25,920
because when we when we've talked with

3456
02:07:31,589 --> 02:07:28,800
um we talked about his ideas uh

3457
02:07:34,870 --> 02:07:31,599
especially his this mad dog version of

3458
02:07:37,030 --> 02:07:34,880
of evelette and i i sort of uh tried to

3459
02:07:39,510 --> 02:07:37,040
point out what what are the the the

3460
02:07:41,270 --> 02:07:39,520
technical limitations of this um

3461
02:07:44,629 --> 02:07:41,280
of this idea

3462
02:07:48,069 --> 02:07:46,550
there is some people who learned quantum

3463
02:07:51,270 --> 02:07:48,079
mechanics

3464
02:07:52,550 --> 02:07:51,280
starting from schrodinger

3465
02:07:56,390 --> 02:07:52,560
and can only think about quantum

3466
02:08:00,229 --> 02:07:58,550
the

3467
02:08:06,550 --> 02:08:00,239
quantum mechanic was not born with

3468
02:08:10,870 --> 02:08:08,550
max borgnon

3469
02:08:15,910 --> 02:08:13,430
the the gottingen

3470
02:08:19,270 --> 02:08:15,920
people in matrix mechanics before

3471
02:08:22,069 --> 02:08:19,280
schrodinger paulie dirac

3472
02:08:24,470 --> 02:08:22,079
uh and it can be thought without any

3473
02:08:25,990 --> 02:08:24,480
wave function without any uh

3474
02:08:29,270 --> 02:08:26,000
any state

3475
02:08:31,430 --> 02:08:29,280
and i think that by introducing the

3476
02:08:33,350 --> 02:08:31,440
uh the wave function

3477
02:08:35,189 --> 02:08:33,360
should even confuse things made

3478
02:08:37,750 --> 02:08:35,199
calculation easier but confused the

3479
02:08:39,750 --> 02:08:37,760
ontology the picture so everybody

3480
02:08:41,589 --> 02:08:39,760
started thinking about this wave and

3481
02:08:43,669 --> 02:08:41,599
got confused

3482
02:08:47,430 --> 02:08:43,679
um

3483
02:08:51,350 --> 02:08:49,510
sean is definitely not making the

3484
02:08:54,390 --> 02:08:51,360
mistake of

3485
02:08:56,550 --> 02:08:54,400
holding on to classical intuition

3486
02:08:58,229 --> 02:08:56,560
to the opposite i mean he he takes the

3487
02:09:00,310 --> 02:08:58,239
the schrodinger wave function very

3488
02:09:04,790 --> 02:09:00,320
seriously tried to build everything

3489
02:09:05,589 --> 02:09:04,800
from that so he's blaming me probably uh

3490
02:09:07,350 --> 02:09:05,599
what

3491
02:09:09,830 --> 02:09:07,360
i am blaming

3492
02:09:12,470 --> 02:09:09,840
wolfram and lee

3493
02:09:13,830 --> 02:09:12,480
namely that i want to stay attached to

3494
02:09:15,990 --> 02:09:13,840
classical

3495
02:09:19,030 --> 02:09:16,000
to variables having values describing

3496
02:09:21,589 --> 02:09:19,040
the world in terms of facts um

3497
02:09:22,790 --> 02:09:21,599
that's probably what he

3498
02:09:25,270 --> 02:09:22,800
he wanted to

3499
02:09:27,669 --> 02:09:25,280
he would like to blame me

3500
02:09:29,669 --> 02:09:27,679
my answer is that uh

3501
02:09:31,430 --> 02:09:29,679
i think it doesn't work to think that

3502
02:09:32,950 --> 02:09:31,440
the world is just a way function is the

3503
02:09:34,950 --> 02:09:32,960
way he would like to he would like to

3504
02:09:36,629 --> 02:09:34,960
say the way function nothing else

3505
02:09:37,910 --> 02:09:36,639
there's this vector in hilbert space and

3506
02:09:39,990 --> 02:09:37,920
nothing else

3507
02:09:43,030 --> 02:09:40,000
and i think that uh

3508
02:09:44,470 --> 02:09:43,040
vector input spaces don't give me pens

3509
02:09:48,149 --> 02:09:44,480
don't give me

3510
02:09:49,910 --> 02:09:48,159
description of the world to

3511
02:09:51,990 --> 02:09:49,920
to to have a quantum theory you need

3512
02:09:53,990 --> 02:09:52,000
much more

3513
02:09:55,589 --> 02:09:54,000
many ingredients

3514
02:09:58,470 --> 02:09:55,599
uh

3515
02:10:01,189 --> 02:09:58,480
so it's not clean the pure wave function

3516
02:10:03,109 --> 02:10:01,199
picture of the world um you need the

3517
02:10:05,589 --> 02:10:03,119
operators you need again values you need

3518
02:10:07,510 --> 02:10:05,599
again vectors you need this structure

3519
02:10:09,350 --> 02:10:07,520
and this structure he hopes to just take

3520
02:10:10,470 --> 02:10:09,360
it out from the hamiltonian

3521
02:10:12,390 --> 02:10:10,480
uh

3522
02:10:14,870 --> 02:10:12,400
but once again i have not

3523
02:10:16,870 --> 02:10:14,880
seen it happening uh

3524
02:10:17,750 --> 02:10:16,880
yet so i think that the

3525
02:10:20,870 --> 02:10:17,760
um

3526
02:10:22,709 --> 02:10:20,880
mechanics is not going to be

3527
02:10:23,589 --> 02:10:22,719
fruitful we need the algebra observance

3528
02:10:26,310 --> 02:10:23,599
quantum mechanics about

3529
02:10:28,229 --> 02:10:26,320
non-communication no computer variables

3530
02:10:30,629 --> 02:10:28,239
the core of quantum mechanics is p q

3531
02:10:32,149 --> 02:10:30,639
minus q p equal i h bar

3532
02:10:34,229 --> 02:10:32,159
this is the core

3533
02:10:36,709 --> 02:10:34,239
of of quantum mechanics variables don't

3534
02:10:39,430 --> 02:10:36,719
commute like an unknown would insist

3535
02:10:41,589 --> 02:10:39,440
upon is a discovery that the variables

3536
02:10:43,910 --> 02:10:41,599
we use to describe the world

3537
02:10:45,430 --> 02:10:43,920
are not always defined because they are

3538
02:10:47,990 --> 02:10:45,440
no commuting so they cannot be both

3539
02:10:49,830 --> 02:10:48,000
defined at the same time that's core

3540
02:10:51,589 --> 02:10:49,840
not the wave function now how is he

3541
02:10:53,270 --> 02:10:51,599
throwing that out by trying to put so

3542
02:10:54,870 --> 02:10:53,280
much emphasis on the wave function how

3543
02:10:56,950 --> 02:10:54,880
is he throwing out those non-commuting

3544
02:10:58,629 --> 02:10:56,960
operators oh that's the mag

3545
02:10:59,350 --> 02:10:58,639
the mother dog interpretation there are

3546
02:11:05,109 --> 02:10:59,360
no

3547
02:11:06,629 --> 02:11:05,119
at the fundamental level there's only

3548
02:11:08,830 --> 02:11:06,639
the wave function and then he says

3549
02:11:11,990 --> 02:11:10,790
hamiltonian the amazonia has some

3550
02:11:14,950 --> 02:11:12,000
structure

3551
02:11:16,550 --> 02:11:14,960
hamiltonian

3552
02:11:18,069 --> 02:11:16,560
one can

3553
02:11:20,229 --> 02:11:18,079
okay derive from the structure of the

3554
02:11:20,950 --> 02:11:20,239
comet the composition of hilbert spaces

3555
02:11:22,550 --> 02:11:20,960
in

3556
02:11:24,870 --> 02:11:22,560
subsystems

3557
02:11:26,709 --> 02:11:24,880
and is some system from the subsystem i

3558
02:11:28,550 --> 02:11:26,719
can extract something which corresponds

3559
02:11:30,790 --> 02:11:28,560
to the algebra of observables so it's a

3560
02:11:33,030 --> 02:11:30,800
very indirect way of trying to

3561
02:11:36,470 --> 02:11:33,040
extract it from the dynamics it's the

3562
02:11:41,510 --> 02:11:38,950
should give us the valuables

3563
02:11:43,189 --> 02:11:41,520
it's a long way to go

3564
02:11:44,709 --> 02:11:43,199
is there a reason that he's starting

3565
02:11:46,390 --> 02:11:44,719
he's saying that there let's imagine the

3566
02:11:47,750 --> 02:11:46,400
wave function of the universe seeing

3567
02:11:49,990 --> 02:11:47,760
quantum field theory and i'm not saying

3568
02:11:51,669 --> 02:11:50,000
anything you don't know it

3569
02:11:53,350 --> 02:11:51,679
it's like operator value it's not that

3570
02:11:55,030 --> 02:11:53,360
people say it's field but it's like a

3571
02:11:56,790 --> 02:11:55,040
strange field it's an operator valued

3572
02:11:58,470 --> 02:11:56,800
field because it's not exactly what yeah

3573
02:12:00,550 --> 02:11:58,480
the mystics say it's like all like water

3574
02:12:02,550 --> 02:12:00,560
and waves well it's like an operator

3575
02:12:04,709 --> 02:12:02,560
wave if you want to call that so why is

3576
02:12:06,550 --> 02:12:04,719
he not using why is he going why is he

3577
02:12:07,750 --> 02:12:06,560
going to qm and our q of t

3578
02:12:10,149 --> 02:12:07,760
in other words

3579
02:12:11,430 --> 02:12:10,159
like the wave function of q no no no he

3580
02:12:13,830 --> 02:12:11,440
has in mind

3581
02:12:15,750 --> 02:12:13,840
quantum field theory he has my qft but

3582
02:12:17,910 --> 02:12:15,760
but but this particular structure that

3583
02:12:18,830 --> 02:12:17,920
defined qft

3584
02:12:22,149 --> 02:12:18,840
he would

3585
02:12:25,430 --> 02:12:22,159
like to say that he's only written in

3586
02:12:30,550 --> 02:12:28,470
uh so he would not he would say that you

3587
02:12:32,550 --> 02:12:30,560
know fundamentally of the world is not

3588
02:12:33,750 --> 02:12:32,560
qft is it's a very rich structure as you

3589
02:12:35,750 --> 02:12:33,760
say there are these quantum fields which

3590
02:12:37,750 --> 02:12:35,760
are actually operated this is local

3591
02:12:38,950 --> 02:12:37,760
quantum operators it's a field of

3592
02:12:41,109 --> 02:12:38,960
operators

3593
02:12:42,629 --> 02:12:41,119
uh which commute don't commute have this

3594
02:12:45,669 --> 02:12:42,639
all this problem so you have to give all

3595
02:12:47,189 --> 02:12:45,679
this machinery to make it work

3596
02:12:49,669 --> 02:12:47,199
and this machinery the operators the

3597
02:12:51,350 --> 02:12:49,679
fields are observable so what we

3598
02:12:52,709 --> 02:12:51,360
interact describe how we interact with

3599
02:12:57,990 --> 02:12:52,719
the field right

3600
02:13:03,030 --> 02:13:00,790
he want to say there's only

3601
02:13:04,709 --> 02:13:03,040
a big guild of space a hub space is just

3602
02:13:06,069 --> 02:13:04,719
a great thing we don't require anything

3603
02:13:07,270 --> 02:13:06,079
else

3604
02:13:09,430 --> 02:13:07,280
okay

3605
02:13:10,950 --> 02:13:09,440
and it's just how the

3606
02:13:13,350 --> 02:13:10,960
what gives the motion

3607
02:13:14,390 --> 02:13:13,360
of of of of the state in the hill this

3608
02:13:16,470 --> 02:13:14,400
place

3609
02:13:18,790 --> 02:13:16,480
but he will say the hamiltonian has some

3610
02:13:20,790 --> 02:13:18,800
structure inside it because it we can

3611
02:13:23,109 --> 02:13:20,800
it's eigen values have some structure

3612
02:13:24,870 --> 02:13:23,119
some some some way of combining them and

3613
02:13:26,550 --> 02:13:24,880
we secretly know

3614
02:13:28,950 --> 02:13:26,560
about all the machinery of quantum field

3615
02:13:31,189 --> 02:13:28,960
theory

3616
02:13:34,470 --> 02:13:31,199
uh it's it's a technical step i don't

3617
02:13:37,109 --> 02:13:34,480
know if i if if i need to go into that

3618
02:13:40,629 --> 02:13:38,950
but but but he has in mind quantitative

3619
02:13:42,629 --> 02:13:40,639
theory in fact the the property of the

3620
02:13:44,870 --> 02:13:42,639
hamiltonian that

3621
02:13:47,669 --> 02:13:44,880
he uses is the locality of the

3622
02:13:49,030 --> 02:13:47,679
interaction tony can be written as a

3623
02:13:50,950 --> 02:13:49,040
uh

3624
02:13:52,629 --> 02:13:50,960
and the locality gives the region of

3625
02:13:53,830 --> 02:13:52,639
space

3626
02:13:55,589 --> 02:13:53,840
uh

3627
02:14:05,750 --> 02:13:55,599
so here's this

3628
02:14:08,870 --> 02:14:07,189
many world

3629
02:14:10,470 --> 02:14:08,880
and my objection

3630
02:14:11,910 --> 02:14:10,480
is you need a hamiltonian and you don't

3631
02:14:16,550 --> 02:14:11,920
have an eternal generativity because

3632
02:14:21,830 --> 02:14:19,430
okay now what is your opinion on eric

3633
02:14:23,750 --> 02:14:21,840
weinstein's geometric unity have you had

3634
02:14:24,709 --> 02:14:23,760
a chance to go through any of the papers

3635
02:14:33,270 --> 02:14:24,719
no

3636
02:14:35,430 --> 02:14:33,280
okay that's fine how about

3637
02:14:36,870 --> 02:14:35,440
donald hoffman's have you do you know

3638
02:14:38,870 --> 02:14:36,880
donald hoffman

3639
02:14:40,390 --> 02:14:38,880
so he has

3640
02:14:45,109 --> 02:14:40,400
the case against reality and yours is

3641
02:14:50,629 --> 02:14:46,950
yes oh this is a big philosophical

3642
02:14:53,589 --> 02:14:52,470
he definitely have

3643
02:14:59,830 --> 02:14:53,599
um

3644
02:15:02,310 --> 02:14:59,840
and some

3645
02:15:04,310 --> 02:15:02,320
radical conclusions from

3646
02:15:05,510 --> 02:15:04,320
from those

3647
02:15:07,669 --> 02:15:05,520
um

3648
02:15:10,310 --> 02:15:07,679
i i know about a little bit about his

3649
02:15:12,470 --> 02:15:10,320
ideas but i have not read his book so

3650
02:15:15,750 --> 02:15:12,480
i'm not sure i have a

3651
02:15:16,709 --> 02:15:15,760
good uh gauging of exactly what you want

3652
02:15:17,990 --> 02:15:16,719
to draw

3653
02:15:19,109 --> 02:15:18,000
from that

3654
02:15:21,669 --> 02:15:19,119
um

3655
02:15:24,069 --> 02:15:21,679
but let me let me say the core of of

3656
02:15:24,870 --> 02:15:24,079
what i think um

3657
02:15:26,390 --> 02:15:24,880
we

3658
02:15:29,750 --> 02:15:26,400
interact

3659
02:15:35,430 --> 02:15:29,760
with the external world around us

3660
02:15:37,109 --> 02:15:35,440
through um our senses and to our uh um

3661
02:15:38,310 --> 02:15:37,119
the way the brain

3662
02:15:39,109 --> 02:15:38,320
interprets

3663
02:15:41,350 --> 02:15:39,119
um

3664
02:15:42,870 --> 02:15:41,360
what we see around us

3665
02:15:44,069 --> 02:15:42,880
and uh

3666
02:15:45,750 --> 02:15:44,079
i think it's

3667
02:15:48,830 --> 02:15:45,760
uh

3668
02:15:51,589 --> 02:15:48,840
a a very good and and very deep

3669
02:15:53,830 --> 02:15:51,599
observation to

3670
02:15:55,589 --> 02:15:53,840
recognize to realize that we call what

3671
02:15:57,350 --> 02:15:55,599
we call the objects

3672
02:15:59,750 --> 02:15:57,360
around us

3673
02:16:02,390 --> 02:15:59,760
are to a large extent uh

3674
02:16:03,350 --> 02:16:02,400
mental constructs

3675
02:16:05,350 --> 02:16:03,360
um

3676
02:16:06,550 --> 02:16:05,360
that uh

3677
02:16:09,350 --> 02:16:06,560
our brain

3678
02:16:10,229 --> 02:16:09,360
uh puts together

3679
02:16:12,470 --> 02:16:10,239
uh

3680
02:16:13,669 --> 02:16:12,480
on the basis of how

3681
02:16:14,470 --> 02:16:13,679
useful

3682
02:16:16,790 --> 02:16:14,480
uh

3683
02:16:19,270 --> 02:16:16,800
this construct have been in our

3684
02:16:23,109 --> 02:16:19,280
evolution to to

3685
02:16:24,310 --> 02:16:23,119
um to allow us to to survive

3686
02:16:25,270 --> 02:16:24,320
so

3687
02:16:26,550 --> 02:16:25,280
uh

3688
02:16:29,270 --> 02:16:26,560
in in

3689
02:16:31,830 --> 02:16:29,280
in a sense we're we're seeing a movie of

3690
02:16:33,830 --> 02:16:31,840
what is outside which is vaguely related

3691
02:16:35,750 --> 02:16:33,840
to what is outside whatever it's

3692
02:16:39,349 --> 02:16:35,760
happening outside

3693
02:16:43,589 --> 02:16:39,359
and is deeply um

3694
02:16:45,669 --> 02:16:43,599
colored by our reading of it um

3695
02:16:47,990 --> 02:16:45,679
this is uh this is an observation which

3696
02:16:50,389 --> 02:16:48,000
has been made in philosophy uh

3697
02:16:52,309 --> 02:16:50,399
many times in fact it's one of the main

3698
02:16:53,429 --> 02:16:52,319
uh things for which kant

3699
02:16:54,870 --> 02:16:53,439
is known

3700
02:16:56,389 --> 02:16:54,880
and kant is considered a major

3701
02:16:58,309 --> 02:16:56,399
philosopher in

3702
02:17:01,589 --> 02:16:58,319
the western tradition but

3703
02:17:02,309 --> 02:17:01,599
it's it's others others before and after

3704
02:17:06,709 --> 02:17:02,319
have

3705
02:17:09,270 --> 02:17:06,719
and i think it's important uh because

3706
02:17:10,469 --> 02:17:09,280
what we're describing at every level is

3707
02:17:14,549 --> 02:17:10,479
not the world it's a world of

3708
02:17:15,429 --> 02:17:14,559
perspective it's a world aspect

3709
02:17:17,669 --> 02:17:15,439
um

3710
02:17:19,509 --> 02:17:17,679
and i think this this has to be deeply

3711
02:17:21,270 --> 02:17:19,519
into your eyes even if it seems so what

3712
02:17:23,110 --> 02:17:21,280
what has the natural reaction of that i

3713
02:17:24,870 --> 02:17:23,120
mean there's a chair there and of course

3714
02:17:26,549 --> 02:17:24,880
i mean i am saying well come on the

3715
02:17:28,070 --> 02:17:26,559
chair is there independently for me and

3716
02:17:29,270 --> 02:17:28,080
there is a sense in which this is not

3717
02:17:31,509 --> 02:17:29,280
true

3718
02:17:33,270 --> 02:17:31,519
the chair is my particular reading of

3719
02:17:34,150 --> 02:17:33,280
what is going on for a number of reasons

3720
02:17:36,389 --> 02:17:34,160
for a

3721
02:17:38,870 --> 02:17:36,399
variety of reasons that he he goes in

3722
02:17:40,870 --> 02:17:38,880
details in the very right

3723
02:17:43,429 --> 02:17:40,880
so the disagreement is

3724
02:17:44,389 --> 02:17:43,439
now so far i'm i'm completely with him

3725
02:17:46,150 --> 02:17:44,399
uh

3726
02:17:48,309 --> 02:17:46,160
now the two points

3727
02:17:49,750 --> 02:17:48,319
one is that all right so

3728
02:17:51,830 --> 02:17:49,760
what

3729
02:17:53,110 --> 02:17:51,840
um

3730
02:17:55,270 --> 02:17:53,120
then what

3731
02:17:57,429 --> 02:17:55,280
um

3732
02:17:59,750 --> 02:17:57,439
and there are two points i would uh not

3733
02:18:02,309 --> 02:17:59,760
really object but i would

3734
02:18:04,389 --> 02:18:02,319
say how i think about this first of all

3735
02:18:07,349 --> 02:18:04,399
that this does not mean

3736
02:18:09,030 --> 02:18:07,359
that our mental world

3737
02:18:12,309 --> 02:18:09,040
is more

3738
02:18:15,589 --> 02:18:12,319
solid and known that the external

3739
02:18:18,549 --> 02:18:15,599
because exactly the same arguments

3740
02:18:20,870 --> 02:18:18,559
uh employed here for the external world

3741
02:18:23,349 --> 02:18:20,880
exactly the same arguments work for our

3742
02:18:26,950 --> 02:18:23,359
mental world namely

3743
02:18:29,750 --> 02:18:26,960
there is nothing certain either

3744
02:18:32,469 --> 02:18:29,760
in what we see as our sense of our self

3745
02:18:34,230 --> 02:18:32,479
our perception these are also

3746
02:18:36,070 --> 02:18:34,240
complicated the

3747
02:18:39,190 --> 02:18:36,080
uh

3748
02:18:41,589 --> 02:18:39,200
cultural biological construction

3749
02:18:43,270 --> 02:18:41,599
that our representation of the world

3750
02:18:45,750 --> 02:18:43,280
has so our reputation for the world

3751
02:18:48,549 --> 02:18:45,760
include a notion of myself and also my

3752
02:18:49,990 --> 02:18:48,559
representations also my representations

3753
02:18:52,709 --> 02:18:50,000
which are all notions that were

3754
02:18:55,190 --> 02:18:52,719
developed culturally

3755
02:18:58,070 --> 02:18:55,200
so the same criticism

3756
02:18:59,589 --> 02:18:58,080
against the existence of outside objects

3757
02:19:01,990 --> 02:18:59,599
i think hold

3758
02:19:03,669 --> 02:19:02,000
for the existence of

3759
02:19:06,870 --> 02:19:03,679
the self

3760
02:19:08,629 --> 02:19:06,880
uh and my mental world

3761
02:19:11,750 --> 02:19:08,639
okay

3762
02:19:15,910 --> 02:19:11,760
so this leaves us where

3763
02:19:18,549 --> 02:19:15,920
i think and this is my my arrival point

3764
02:19:20,629 --> 02:19:18,559
this leaves us in my opinion

3765
02:19:23,750 --> 02:19:20,639
towards

3766
02:19:25,990 --> 02:19:23,760
the anti-foundationalism

3767
02:19:27,270 --> 02:19:26,000
that we talked at the beginning of the

3768
02:19:29,270 --> 02:19:27,280
story

3769
02:19:32,150 --> 02:19:29,280
namely we should not ask the wrong

3770
02:19:35,270 --> 02:19:32,160
question the wrong question is what is

3771
02:19:36,950 --> 02:19:35,280
really really really outside there

3772
02:19:38,790 --> 02:19:36,960
that's a wrong question

3773
02:19:39,750 --> 02:19:38,800
the right question

3774
02:19:40,220 --> 02:19:39,760
is

3775
02:19:41,750 --> 02:19:40,230
um

3776
02:19:43,589 --> 02:19:41,760
[Music]

3777
02:19:44,709 --> 02:19:43,599
i see

3778
02:19:45,830 --> 02:19:44,719
a mirror

3779
02:19:48,549 --> 02:19:45,840
okay

3780
02:19:50,070 --> 02:19:48,559
it seems to me that a chair is the other

3781
02:19:52,070 --> 02:19:50,080
side of the mirror

3782
02:19:53,670 --> 02:19:52,080
is it true or false no it's false is an

3783
02:19:56,150 --> 02:19:53,680
illusion the chair is not the other side

3784
02:19:57,830 --> 02:19:56,160
of the mirror the chair is here

3785
02:20:00,469 --> 02:19:57,840
okay

3786
02:20:03,750 --> 02:20:00,479
the chair is really here and falsely

3787
02:20:05,429 --> 02:20:03,760
outside the mirror that's correct

3788
02:20:07,990 --> 02:20:05,439
okay

3789
02:20:09,910 --> 02:20:08,000
we can play this game step by step

3790
02:20:11,990 --> 02:20:09,920
by realizing that things are not like

3791
02:20:13,429 --> 02:20:12,000
that we're misunderstanding there

3792
02:20:15,190 --> 02:20:13,439
there's a better way of understanding

3793
02:20:17,110 --> 02:20:15,200
that they're not like that the

3794
02:20:18,790 --> 02:20:17,120
misunderstanding there's a matter with

3795
02:20:21,309 --> 02:20:18,800
if we ask the question okay so what is

3796
02:20:22,870 --> 02:20:21,319
the ultimate reality

3797
02:20:25,270 --> 02:20:22,880
independently

3798
02:20:28,309 --> 02:20:25,280
of any representation that's not a good

3799
02:20:31,510 --> 02:20:28,319
question in my opinion

3800
02:20:34,950 --> 02:20:31,520
that's a wrong question reality is that

3801
02:20:37,030 --> 02:20:34,960
chair reality is that son the reality is

3802
02:20:39,110 --> 02:20:37,040
that sharing the mural

3803
02:20:40,230 --> 02:20:39,120
and their relations their relative

3804
02:20:42,870 --> 02:20:40,240
relations

3805
02:20:44,469 --> 02:20:42,880
so i will jump out of this discussion

3806
02:20:46,950 --> 02:20:44,479
okay and

3807
02:20:48,790 --> 02:20:46,960
distinguish if you want the apparent

3808
02:20:50,950 --> 02:20:48,800
reality and the ultimate reality and

3809
02:20:52,950 --> 02:20:50,960
forget about the ultimate reality we are

3810
02:20:55,349 --> 02:20:52,960
talking about this after reality and

3811
02:20:57,590 --> 02:20:55,359
that's what we call reality

3812
02:21:00,870 --> 02:20:57,600
reality is the ensemble

3813
02:21:03,110 --> 02:21:00,880
of this phenomena of which i am part and

3814
02:21:04,950 --> 02:21:03,120
your part and the cherries part

3815
02:21:07,110 --> 02:21:04,960
and all the way we

3816
02:21:09,270 --> 02:21:07,120
understand better and better and better

3817
02:21:12,469 --> 02:21:09,280
we can say they are made by atoms for

3818
02:21:14,469 --> 02:21:12,479
fantastic we can say the atoms are a

3819
02:21:17,110 --> 02:21:14,479
quantum mechanical object that interact

3820
02:21:18,150 --> 02:21:17,120
with us fantastic we we get more and

3821
02:21:20,870 --> 02:21:18,160
more

3822
02:21:22,150 --> 02:21:20,880
complexity of the phenomena

3823
02:21:24,870 --> 02:21:22,160
but we

3824
02:21:28,070 --> 02:21:24,880
if we get if we ask the question

3825
02:21:30,870 --> 02:21:28,080
where do we ground all that what is the

3826
02:21:33,910 --> 02:21:30,880
ultimate reality forget about this so if

3827
02:21:35,910 --> 02:21:33,920
the case against reality

3828
02:21:38,389 --> 02:21:35,920
that he's making

3829
02:21:41,429 --> 02:21:38,399
is the case is the case against the idea

3830
02:21:43,830 --> 02:21:41,439
of an ultimate reality out there

3831
02:21:44,790 --> 02:21:43,840
and in favor of an ultimate reality for

3832
02:21:47,670 --> 02:21:44,800
our

3833
02:21:49,349 --> 02:21:47,680
impressions i disagree

3834
02:21:51,910 --> 02:21:49,359
because there is a good way of

3835
02:21:55,910 --> 02:21:51,920
understanding our impression as caused

3836
02:21:56,950 --> 02:21:55,920
by the chair that chair

3837
02:21:59,030 --> 02:21:56,960
not

3838
02:22:01,190 --> 02:21:59,040
a metaphysical chair

3839
02:22:03,670 --> 02:22:01,200
or if you want in kantian terms who

3840
02:22:05,830 --> 02:22:03,680
cares about the aluminum we care about

3841
02:22:07,910 --> 02:22:05,840
the phenomena

3842
02:22:08,710 --> 02:22:07,920
what we call reality is a phenomena not

3843
02:22:10,550 --> 02:22:08,720
an

3844
02:22:13,830 --> 02:22:10,560
hypothetical thing

3845
02:22:15,349 --> 02:22:13,840
behind the phenomena

3846
02:22:16,630 --> 02:22:15,359
that's my take on it

3847
02:22:19,510 --> 02:22:16,640
when i hear that well here's what i'm

3848
02:22:21,190 --> 02:22:19,520
thinking okay you said the chair is not

3849
02:22:24,150 --> 02:22:21,200
really behind the mirror it's really

3850
02:22:25,990 --> 02:22:24,160
over to the left of me okay yeah

3851
02:22:27,429 --> 02:22:26,000
and that's what it means really

3852
02:22:29,510 --> 02:22:27,439
right we have this notion of really we

3853
02:22:32,070 --> 02:22:29,520
have this notion of reality then if i

3854
02:22:34,309 --> 02:22:32,080
was to get you or anyone else just say

3855
02:22:37,030 --> 02:22:34,319
people in general to what are some facts

3856
02:22:38,790 --> 02:22:37,040
that of what is a part of reality see

3857
02:22:40,230 --> 02:22:38,800
we're trying to derive a definition from

3858
02:22:42,550 --> 02:22:40,240
looking at well i say that this

3859
02:22:44,870 --> 02:22:42,560
microphone is really in front of me and

3860
02:22:47,190 --> 02:22:44,880
then i may point to other objects

3861
02:22:49,349 --> 02:22:47,200
and say that really is the case but then

3862
02:22:51,110 --> 02:22:49,359
well what if there's an inconsistency in

3863
02:22:54,870 --> 02:22:51,120
what we call a part of our reality and

3864
02:22:57,030 --> 02:22:54,880
not then which one do we take as more

3865
02:22:58,710 --> 02:22:57,040
why do we favor this microphone being

3866
02:23:00,469 --> 02:22:58,720
really in front of me but

3867
02:23:03,190 --> 02:23:00,479
santa claus not really existing no you

3868
02:23:05,910 --> 02:23:03,200
have you have i got exactly the point i

3869
02:23:08,230 --> 02:23:05,920
think we have to use really

3870
02:23:10,870 --> 02:23:08,240
coherence just which ones mix cohere

3871
02:23:14,230 --> 02:23:10,880
together consistent what is it

3872
02:23:17,429 --> 02:23:14,240
i i think we have to realize that uh

3873
02:23:20,630 --> 02:23:17,439
really in reality

3874
02:23:22,469 --> 02:23:20,640
it's uh uh it can be used in different

3875
02:23:24,230 --> 02:23:22,479
uh right right right do use at different

3876
02:23:28,750 --> 02:23:24,240
levels and it's fine we do different

3877
02:23:33,670 --> 02:23:30,830
did

3878
02:23:35,750 --> 02:23:33,680
uh um hamlet

3879
02:23:38,630 --> 02:23:35,760
really killed his uncle

3880
02:23:41,110 --> 02:23:38,640
yes he did really kill his uncle i mean

3881
02:23:42,870 --> 02:23:41,120
um if you tell me you know hamlet did

3882
02:23:45,110 --> 02:23:42,880
not kill his uncle at the end of the

3883
02:23:47,349 --> 02:23:45,120
play i said no no he did he really did

3884
02:23:49,510 --> 02:23:47,359
look i come with shakespeare texts i

3885
02:23:51,510 --> 02:23:49,520
said it's written here i'm killing you

3886
02:23:53,670 --> 02:23:51,520
uncle okay

3887
02:23:55,030 --> 02:23:53,680
so i'm using really

3888
02:23:58,870 --> 02:23:55,040
okay

3889
02:24:00,550 --> 02:23:58,880
and now you tell me come on it's not

3890
02:24:01,750 --> 02:24:00,560
real because it's a play of course it's

3891
02:24:02,550 --> 02:24:01,760
not real

3892
02:24:04,309 --> 02:24:02,560
okay

3893
02:24:05,830 --> 02:24:04,319
so when am i right when i say i'm real

3894
02:24:07,349 --> 02:24:05,840
what i'm saying unboxed right in both

3895
02:24:11,349 --> 02:24:07,359
cases i'm just meaning two different

3896
02:24:13,270 --> 02:24:11,359
views so real is in a context

3897
02:24:15,349 --> 02:24:13,280
if you want to take a real outside the

3898
02:24:16,389 --> 02:24:15,359
questions what is really really really

3899
02:24:18,870 --> 02:24:16,399
real

3900
02:24:22,389 --> 02:24:18,880
behind all the context

3901
02:24:26,950 --> 02:24:24,790
so talking about the mirror we make a

3902
02:24:29,349 --> 02:24:26,960
distinction between the chair and the

3903
02:24:31,590 --> 02:24:29,359
other side of the mirror and the chair

3904
02:24:33,590 --> 02:24:31,600
that chair there

3905
02:24:45,030 --> 02:24:33,600
and

3906
02:24:46,550 --> 02:24:45,040
i mean i i mean if i walk against the

3907
02:24:48,150 --> 02:24:46,560
mirror i just

3908
02:24:50,230 --> 02:24:48,160
hit my nose against them

3909
02:24:51,830 --> 02:24:50,240
while if i walk there that chair i can

3910
02:24:53,349 --> 02:24:51,840
see down i mean just

3911
02:24:55,190 --> 02:24:53,359
there's a very precise sense in which

3912
02:24:58,710 --> 02:24:55,200
one is more real than the other

3913
02:25:00,469 --> 02:24:58,720
okay and in the in if i'm dreaming

3914
02:25:03,429 --> 02:25:00,479
there's a very precise sense in which i

3915
02:25:04,309 --> 02:25:03,439
say that's not real it was a dream

3916
02:25:06,150 --> 02:25:04,319
okay

3917
02:25:08,150 --> 02:25:06,160
but within the dream itself there i

3918
02:25:10,950 --> 02:25:08,160
think which are real in the dream and

3919
02:25:12,950 --> 02:25:10,960
not real in the dream okay in the dream

3920
02:25:15,190 --> 02:25:12,960
i can dream of somebody who is telling

3921
02:25:16,950 --> 02:25:15,200
me uh i mean look you thought that is so

3922
02:25:18,550 --> 02:25:16,960
bad is not so they reveal something else

3923
02:25:20,550 --> 02:25:18,560
so within the dream there is a notion of

3924
02:25:23,670 --> 02:25:20,560
reality there in the movie there is a

3925
02:25:25,110 --> 02:25:23,680
notion of reality there

3926
02:25:26,710 --> 02:25:25,120
so

3927
02:25:29,110 --> 02:25:26,720
the question what is real is a very

3928
02:25:32,150 --> 02:25:29,120
slippery question it's a

3929
02:25:34,550 --> 02:25:32,160
context by context it makes sense

3930
02:25:35,510 --> 02:25:34,560
but every time we see a context

3931
02:25:37,030 --> 02:25:35,520
in which

3932
02:25:39,110 --> 02:25:37,040
we're giving something for granted and

3933
02:25:40,870 --> 02:25:39,120
we're building them

3934
02:25:43,910 --> 02:25:40,880
and when

3935
02:25:45,510 --> 02:25:43,920
when i hear the argument

3936
02:25:46,550 --> 02:25:45,520
um

3937
02:25:49,270 --> 02:25:46,560
look

3938
02:25:56,710 --> 02:25:50,630
the

3939
02:25:59,349 --> 02:25:56,720
makes sense of that chair it's because

3940
02:26:01,190 --> 02:25:59,359
in my brain there is a notion of sitting

3941
02:26:04,150 --> 02:26:01,200
there is an ocean because there is a

3942
02:26:04,830 --> 02:26:04,160
space of colors blah blah blah blah

3943
02:26:07,830 --> 02:26:04,840
and

3944
02:26:09,510 --> 02:26:07,840
therefore uh the chair it's it's it's

3945
02:26:11,190 --> 02:26:09,520
it's it's really a cherry

3946
02:26:13,990 --> 02:26:11,200
in an illusion for me

3947
02:26:16,550 --> 02:26:14,000
the context is a context in which i'm

3948
02:26:18,870 --> 02:26:16,560
giving for real a number of things my

3949
02:26:22,790 --> 02:26:18,880
brain

3950
02:26:25,270 --> 02:26:22,800
the the the the the more the the the the

3951
02:26:27,190 --> 02:26:25,280
the the existence of light coming to me

3952
02:26:29,110 --> 02:26:27,200
you you're creating a context so that

3953
02:26:33,030 --> 02:26:29,120
within that context there's a notion of

3954
02:26:34,870 --> 02:26:33,040
reality and and and and illusion

3955
02:26:37,510 --> 02:26:34,880
and what about that context itself is it

3956
02:26:38,309 --> 02:26:37,520
real is not real

3957
02:26:40,790 --> 02:26:38,319
it's

3958
02:26:42,550 --> 02:26:40,800
i i think that we describe the phenomena

3959
02:26:44,630 --> 02:26:42,560
that we interact with

3960
02:26:46,870 --> 02:26:44,640
and within description that's the

3961
02:26:48,469 --> 02:26:46,880
scripture is reality that's what we mean

3962
02:26:50,870 --> 02:26:48,479
by reality

3963
02:26:51,910 --> 02:26:50,880
and if we try to say

3964
02:26:53,830 --> 02:26:51,920
uh

3965
02:26:56,230 --> 02:26:53,840
beyond the phenomena

3966
02:26:58,550 --> 02:26:56,240
what is the true ultimate reality we're

3967
02:27:00,309 --> 02:26:58,560
making a mistake

3968
02:27:02,790 --> 02:27:00,319
and this is a mistake

3969
02:27:05,510 --> 02:27:02,800
that a lot of philosophers

3970
02:27:10,389 --> 02:27:05,520
have warned us against many

3971
02:27:15,670 --> 02:27:12,790
a lot of phenomenal say careful

3972
02:27:17,510 --> 02:27:15,680
i mean you take a distinction

3973
02:27:19,670 --> 02:27:17,520
the chair in the mirror and and the

3974
02:27:21,030 --> 02:27:19,680
chair you see there and you're trying to

3975
02:27:22,309 --> 02:27:21,040
replay that

3976
02:27:23,830 --> 02:27:22,319
that's everything you know about the

3977
02:27:25,990 --> 02:27:23,840
universe and something else which is a

3978
02:27:28,309 --> 02:27:26,000
real real real thing that's a real real

3979
02:27:30,230 --> 02:27:28,319
thing forget about it don't don't do

3980
02:27:31,750 --> 02:27:30,240
that

3981
02:27:32,870 --> 02:27:31,760
so i would say

3982
02:27:35,510 --> 02:27:32,880
that

3983
02:27:39,429 --> 02:27:35,520
we don't have a case against reality

3984
02:27:40,870 --> 02:27:39,439
with a case for reality

3985
02:27:42,710 --> 02:27:40,880
and against the idea that there's an

3986
02:27:45,990 --> 02:27:42,720
ultimate reality behind it beyond

3987
02:27:49,750 --> 02:27:47,590
when you say that what i'm wondering is

3988
02:27:52,070 --> 02:27:49,760
is that because we can never know what's

3989
02:27:54,230 --> 02:27:52,080
outside of what's knowable so you gave

3990
02:27:55,910 --> 02:27:54,240
kant the phenomenon the pneumonia give

3991
02:27:58,550 --> 02:27:55,920
that example is it because of that we

3992
02:28:00,070 --> 02:27:58,560
can just not know it why is it that

3993
02:28:03,349 --> 02:28:00,080
it's so foolish to talk about the

3994
02:28:05,830 --> 02:28:04,230
uh

3995
02:28:07,750 --> 02:28:05,840
to the extent in which we can know

3996
02:28:10,230 --> 02:28:07,760
something else we may hope to know

3997
02:28:12,630 --> 02:28:10,240
something else we we correctly

3998
02:28:14,550 --> 02:28:12,640
put this question

3999
02:28:15,750 --> 02:28:14,560
uh on the table

4000
02:28:18,550 --> 02:28:15,760
right

4001
02:28:20,150 --> 02:28:18,560
uh but only to the extent in which we

4002
02:28:22,710 --> 02:28:20,160
may have a hope

4003
02:28:23,750 --> 02:28:22,720
to know something else

4004
02:28:25,110 --> 02:28:23,760
um

4005
02:28:27,590 --> 02:28:25,120
i'll explain my reasoning behind the

4006
02:28:28,950 --> 02:28:27,600
question and me so when i'm speaking to

4007
02:28:31,190 --> 02:28:28,960
some non-dualist i don't know if you

4008
02:28:33,110 --> 02:28:31,200
know what non-dualism is

4009
02:28:34,870 --> 02:28:33,120
they would say consciousness is primary

4010
02:28:36,309 --> 02:28:34,880
and then i pose the question well how do

4011
02:28:38,309 --> 02:28:36,319
you know what if there's something

4012
02:28:39,590 --> 02:28:38,319
outside consciousness a simple question

4013
02:28:40,790 --> 02:28:39,600
they would say yeah but you could never

4014
02:28:41,910 --> 02:28:40,800
know that

4015
02:28:43,510 --> 02:28:41,920
well

4016
02:28:46,630 --> 02:28:43,520
it's true i can't experience what's

4017
02:28:47,990 --> 02:28:46,640
outside my experience by definition

4018
02:28:50,790 --> 02:28:48,000
but that to me doesn't mean that it

4019
02:28:52,389 --> 02:28:50,800
doesn't exist now you one can say that

4020
02:28:53,910 --> 02:28:52,399
it's foolish to talk about it because it

4021
02:28:56,230 --> 02:28:53,920
never interacts with you and you have no

4022
02:28:58,389 --> 02:28:56,240
clue that's another argument but to say

4023
02:29:00,469 --> 02:28:58,399
it doesn't exist

4024
02:29:03,270 --> 02:29:00,479
because it's outside of our experience i

4025
02:29:07,030 --> 02:29:03,280
don't find that particularly convincing

4026
02:29:09,030 --> 02:29:07,040
so that's what's behind my question

4027
02:29:12,150 --> 02:29:09,040
no no it's it's it's it's a good

4028
02:29:18,630 --> 02:29:12,160
question uh i i i see the point

4029
02:29:18,640 --> 02:29:24,230
we

4030
02:29:27,270 --> 02:29:25,990
what is the use

4031
02:29:30,790 --> 02:29:27,280
of

4032
02:29:32,550 --> 02:29:30,800
that there is something beyond our

4033
02:29:35,590 --> 02:29:32,560
knowledge

4034
02:29:36,950 --> 02:29:35,600
okay i think there are two uses

4035
02:29:41,910 --> 02:29:36,960
one is that

4036
02:29:45,110 --> 02:29:42,710
and

4037
02:29:45,830 --> 02:29:45,120
the other is just you know to recognize

4038
02:29:49,670 --> 02:29:45,840
that

4039
02:29:51,110 --> 02:29:49,680
be something

4040
02:29:54,230 --> 02:29:51,120
and

4041
02:29:55,190 --> 02:29:54,240
these are two very different situations

4042
02:30:00,870 --> 02:29:55,200
uh

4043
02:30:03,110 --> 02:30:00,880
if if i see a chair and i suspect that

4044
02:30:06,070 --> 02:30:03,120
it might be in understandable in terms

4045
02:30:09,990 --> 02:30:07,429
i can

4046
02:30:11,910 --> 02:30:10,000
ask the question uh

4047
02:30:15,270 --> 02:30:11,920
maybe beyond the appearance of the chair

4048
02:30:16,870 --> 02:30:15,280
there is a atomic structure

4049
02:30:18,870 --> 02:30:16,880
and then i can do some science or i can

4050
02:30:20,870 --> 02:30:18,880
do some investigation or can do b

4051
02:30:23,910 --> 02:30:20,880
boltzmann and come up with explanation

4052
02:30:26,389 --> 02:30:23,920
of temperature on the basis of that

4053
02:30:29,030 --> 02:30:26,399
or be einstein and come up with a brown

4054
02:30:31,510 --> 02:30:29,040
emotion and from the atoms explained by

4055
02:30:34,550 --> 02:30:31,520
an emotion or then you know be ibm that

4056
02:30:36,070 --> 02:30:34,560
make a microscope and see the atoms

4057
02:30:42,630 --> 02:30:36,080
so

4058
02:30:45,590 --> 02:30:42,640
a better deeper

4059
02:30:48,550 --> 02:30:45,600
um description reality and that allowed

4060
02:30:49,349 --> 02:30:48,560
me to get a better escape from the world

4061
02:30:53,110 --> 02:30:49,359
that's

4062
02:30:54,389 --> 02:30:53,120
it's a situation in which is good to say

4063
02:30:56,630 --> 02:30:54,399
well

4064
02:30:58,710 --> 02:30:56,640
maybe i just don't know something which

4065
02:31:01,670 --> 02:30:58,720
i might know it

4066
02:31:02,550 --> 02:31:01,680
but if the argument

4067
02:31:04,870 --> 02:31:02,560
uh

4068
02:31:06,710 --> 02:31:04,880
like the case against reality is that

4069
02:31:08,070 --> 02:31:06,720
there is a reality which is in principle

4070
02:31:10,790 --> 02:31:08,080
unknowable

4071
02:31:13,750 --> 02:31:10,800
that they cannot know about that

4072
02:31:17,030 --> 02:31:13,760
which is a completely different story is

4073
02:31:22,870 --> 02:31:19,750
maybe there is an aspect of

4074
02:31:24,309 --> 02:31:22,880
beyond what we call reality usually

4075
02:31:27,270 --> 02:31:24,319
which is

4076
02:31:29,030 --> 02:31:27,280
in principle and accessible

4077
02:31:30,550 --> 02:31:29,040
and then what interest do we have on

4078
02:31:32,790 --> 02:31:30,560
that on that

4079
02:31:35,429 --> 02:31:32,800
i mean why should we talk about that

4080
02:31:37,429 --> 02:31:35,439
i mean suppose uh you know i come to you

4081
02:31:38,950 --> 02:31:37,439
and say you know i believe that this is

4082
02:31:40,790 --> 02:31:38,960
a universe but there's a next to another

4083
02:31:43,510 --> 02:31:40,800
direct dimension where there are you

4084
02:31:45,510 --> 02:31:43,520
know green dragons going around and

4085
02:31:46,870 --> 02:31:45,520
speaking chinese to one another okay but

4086
02:31:48,309 --> 02:31:46,880
they never interact with us we never

4087
02:31:49,590 --> 02:31:48,319
interact with them

4088
02:31:51,750 --> 02:31:49,600
and uh

4089
02:31:53,429 --> 02:31:51,760
and they just totally

4090
02:31:55,670 --> 02:31:53,439
and then you say how do you know about

4091
02:31:57,830 --> 02:31:55,680
that i mean i don't but can you disprove

4092
02:32:01,190 --> 02:31:57,840
it no i cannot disprove it but what's

4093
02:32:02,950 --> 02:32:01,200
the interest of this story zero

4094
02:32:05,030 --> 02:32:02,960
so i think that ultimate reality is like

4095
02:32:06,550 --> 02:32:05,040
the dragons

4096
02:32:10,070 --> 02:32:06,560
speaking chinese to one another and

4097
02:32:13,429 --> 02:32:10,080
playing football in another dimension

4098
02:32:18,630 --> 02:32:16,870
by reality we mean what we interact with

4099
02:32:20,790 --> 02:32:18,640
with the complexity

4100
02:32:22,830 --> 02:32:20,800
of the different layers

4101
02:32:25,510 --> 02:32:22,840
and we may find other layers

4102
02:32:29,910 --> 02:32:25,520
perfectly but we shouldn't worry about

4103
02:32:33,670 --> 02:32:32,309
not being the totality of things

4104
02:32:36,870 --> 02:32:33,680
because that's the totality of things

4105
02:32:40,550 --> 02:32:38,630
here's what i think of when i hear that

4106
02:32:41,750 --> 02:32:40,560
again the word pragmatism comes up

4107
02:32:44,710 --> 02:32:41,760
because you're talking about well what's

4108
02:32:47,030 --> 02:32:44,720
the use of it what's the point of it

4109
02:32:49,030 --> 02:32:47,040
so then i'm wondering well is

4110
02:32:50,710 --> 02:32:49,040
is reality or theorizing tied to

4111
02:32:51,910 --> 02:32:50,720
pragmatism in some sense yes because

4112
02:32:54,230 --> 02:32:51,920
we're finite beings we have to choose to

4113
02:32:56,309 --> 02:32:54,240
do something but then

4114
02:32:58,950 --> 02:32:56,319
can we not philosophize for the sake of

4115
02:33:01,349 --> 02:32:58,960
philosophizing so that's what occurs to

4116
02:33:02,950 --> 02:33:01,359
me and then at the same time when saying

4117
02:33:04,710 --> 02:33:02,960
well we don't know if these chinese

4118
02:33:06,070 --> 02:33:04,720
dragons are playing football in some

4119
02:33:06,950 --> 02:33:06,080
other dimension that never interacts

4120
02:33:09,110 --> 02:33:06,960
with us

4121
02:33:10,870 --> 02:33:09,120
however i would say it's still firstly

4122
02:33:14,870 --> 02:33:10,880
it's fun to think about chinese football

4123
02:33:17,429 --> 02:33:16,389
just like we were talking about in the

4124
02:33:19,349 --> 02:33:17,439
beginning

4125
02:33:20,790 --> 02:33:19,359
scientists have an aversion or generally

4126
02:33:23,030 --> 02:33:20,800
now contemporary scientists have an

4127
02:33:24,550 --> 02:33:23,040
aversion to philosophizing

4128
02:33:25,910 --> 02:33:24,560
they would say well this is much of what

4129
02:33:28,389 --> 02:33:25,920
you're talking about especially when it

4130
02:33:29,910 --> 02:33:28,399
comes to metaphysics is unfalsifiable

4131
02:33:31,670 --> 02:33:29,920
science is a methodology let's apply

4132
02:33:33,670 --> 02:33:31,680
that let's stick to our mathematics but

4133
02:33:35,110 --> 02:33:33,680
then you were making the great argument

4134
02:33:37,030 --> 02:33:35,120
which is

4135
02:33:39,030 --> 02:33:37,040
that leads us to plenty of places even

4136
02:33:40,950 --> 02:33:39,040
if it seems misleading at first or even

4137
02:33:41,990 --> 02:33:40,960
if it seems to not interact with us

4138
02:33:43,910 --> 02:33:42,000
first

4139
02:33:45,990 --> 02:33:43,920
so that's what else i think about it is

4140
02:33:47,429 --> 02:33:46,000
that okay even if we say there are these

4141
02:33:48,469 --> 02:33:47,439
non-interacting

4142
02:33:51,110 --> 02:33:48,479
chinese

4143
02:33:53,429 --> 02:33:51,120
dragons that play football

4144
02:33:54,950 --> 02:33:53,439
okay let me hear you out do you truly

4145
02:33:56,790 --> 02:33:54,960
believe that do you have some

4146
02:33:58,230 --> 02:33:56,800
great arguments for it let's hear it

4147
02:33:59,910 --> 02:33:58,240
okay let's think about that would this

4148
02:34:02,469 --> 02:33:59,920
be the case of that and then you can

4149
02:34:04,550 --> 02:34:02,479
arrive someplace interesting so i'd say

4150
02:34:05,830 --> 02:34:04,560
first you said it's about a point what

4151
02:34:07,750 --> 02:34:05,840
is the point what is the use then i say

4152
02:34:09,429 --> 02:34:07,760
well that's pragmatist that's pragmatism

4153
02:34:11,270 --> 02:34:09,439
in this sense of it has to have a use to

4154
02:34:12,710 --> 02:34:11,280
us and i'm saying well we could talk

4155
02:34:14,150 --> 02:34:12,720
about that but then also at the same

4156
02:34:15,590 --> 02:34:14,160
time there could be a use in the sense

4157
02:34:17,750 --> 02:34:15,600
that well we can talk about

4158
02:34:19,830 --> 02:34:17,760
incomprehensible unfalsifiable notions

4159
02:34:21,510 --> 02:34:19,840
and still lead us somewhere propitious

4160
02:34:23,990 --> 02:34:21,520
in the long run okay so that's what i

4161
02:34:25,510 --> 02:34:24,000
think now i say that and i'm curious

4162
02:34:27,990 --> 02:34:25,520
what are your thoughts on what i've just

4163
02:34:34,469 --> 02:34:31,190
well i i wouldn't not disagree with you

4164
02:34:38,389 --> 02:34:35,830
i think there is a

4165
02:34:40,550 --> 02:34:38,399
tradition in philosophy

4166
02:34:42,950 --> 02:34:40,560
so let me develop something i hinted

4167
02:34:45,830 --> 02:34:42,960
before there's a tradition in philosophy

4168
02:34:48,309 --> 02:34:45,840
which is to warn

4169
02:34:50,790 --> 02:34:48,319
philosophy as a cure witkinstein is a

4170
02:34:53,030 --> 02:34:50,800
master of that cure against wrong

4171
02:34:55,910 --> 02:34:53,040
questions

4172
02:34:58,150 --> 02:34:55,920
we're wrong what does wrong mean here

4173
02:35:01,190 --> 02:34:58,160
uh you probably call me a pragmatist if

4174
02:35:02,389 --> 02:35:01,200
you say wrong means useless um

4175
02:35:03,910 --> 02:35:02,399
so

4176
02:35:05,990 --> 02:35:03,920
uh

4177
02:35:09,429 --> 02:35:06,000
like not good for us ultimately leads us

4178
02:35:14,309 --> 02:35:10,309
um

4179
02:35:18,630 --> 02:35:14,319
yeah so just take us to the wrong

4180
02:35:23,349 --> 02:35:21,110
if if you stay in science science was

4181
02:35:27,429 --> 02:35:23,359
often liberated

4182
02:35:30,230 --> 02:35:27,439
uh by philosophical thinking that

4183
02:35:32,550 --> 02:35:30,240
science often made step ahead

4184
02:35:34,550 --> 02:35:32,560
by getting input from philosophy that

4185
02:35:38,230 --> 02:35:34,560
said well you don't you don't have to

4186
02:35:41,270 --> 02:35:39,510
certainly

4187
02:35:42,710 --> 02:35:41,280
this played around

4188
02:35:45,349 --> 02:35:42,720
copernicus but played a bigger role in

4189
02:35:46,230 --> 02:35:45,359
einstein einstein got from mark the idea

4190
02:35:47,030 --> 02:35:46,240
that

4191
02:35:52,469 --> 02:35:47,040
uh

4192
02:35:53,670 --> 02:35:52,479
it's really really meaning of two things

4193
02:35:55,030 --> 02:35:53,680
happening at the same time it's just a

4194
02:35:56,230 --> 02:35:55,040
wrong question we forget about that

4195
02:35:57,750 --> 02:35:56,240
that's not

4196
02:36:00,150 --> 02:35:57,760
meaningful i mean

4197
02:36:04,230 --> 02:36:02,550
also from mac heisenberg

4198
02:36:05,750 --> 02:36:04,240
took the idea that

4199
02:36:07,110 --> 02:36:05,760
the election doesn't have a position at

4200
02:36:10,150 --> 02:36:07,120
any time

4201
02:36:14,550 --> 02:36:10,160
directly from this is a this is a wrong

4202
02:36:19,670 --> 02:36:16,070
so there is a there's a tradition in

4203
02:36:22,870 --> 02:36:21,830
against the wrong kind of questions and

4204
02:36:24,630 --> 02:36:22,880
uh

4205
02:36:27,030 --> 02:36:24,640
i think what i'm saying here what i'm

4206
02:36:27,990 --> 02:36:27,040
trying to say here is that uh

4207
02:36:29,110 --> 02:36:28,000
um

4208
02:36:32,150 --> 02:36:29,120
it's uh

4209
02:36:34,630 --> 02:36:32,160
the notion of reality is good uh because

4210
02:36:36,550 --> 02:36:34,640
we we use it to distinguish the the

4211
02:36:37,429 --> 02:36:36,560
chair in the mirror from the chair

4212
02:36:39,349 --> 02:36:37,439
um

4213
02:36:41,110 --> 02:36:39,359
on which i can see it to distinguish the

4214
02:36:43,190 --> 02:36:41,120
dream from the

4215
02:36:45,030 --> 02:36:43,200
from what i see when i'm awake for

4216
02:36:46,870 --> 02:36:45,040
disclaiming what is uh what's in a play

4217
02:36:47,990 --> 02:36:46,880
or in a novel from what is not in a play

4218
02:36:48,790 --> 02:36:48,000
in a novel

4219
02:36:50,309 --> 02:36:48,800
if you

4220
02:36:53,110 --> 02:36:50,319
or or for distinguished i mean you tell

4221
02:36:55,349 --> 02:36:53,120
me that yesterday you met

4222
02:36:57,110 --> 02:36:55,359
john and say is that real or false

4223
02:36:59,030 --> 02:36:57,120
you lie that's this is meaningful this

4224
02:37:00,710 --> 02:36:59,040
is uh we know exactly what you mean by

4225
02:37:02,630 --> 02:37:00,720
real and false here

4226
02:37:06,070 --> 02:37:02,640
um

4227
02:37:10,550 --> 02:37:06,080
but then if we take this notion of real

4228
02:37:16,630 --> 02:37:12,230
extrapolated

4229
02:37:17,590 --> 02:37:16,640
to say everything we see is not real

4230
02:37:19,990 --> 02:37:17,600
uh

4231
02:37:21,110 --> 02:37:20,000
because everything we see

4232
02:37:24,950 --> 02:37:21,120
uh

4233
02:37:26,550 --> 02:37:24,960
has a level of illusion of some kind

4234
02:37:28,070 --> 02:37:26,560
much weaker kind of the mirror much

4235
02:37:29,510 --> 02:37:28,080
weaker kind

4236
02:37:31,510 --> 02:37:29,520
uh

4237
02:37:33,510 --> 02:37:31,520
it's good that we realize that there's a

4238
02:37:35,990 --> 02:37:33,520
level of illusion but then we are

4239
02:37:38,070 --> 02:37:36,000
postulating that there is a

4240
02:37:39,750 --> 02:37:38,080
underlying reality

4241
02:37:42,790 --> 02:37:39,760
behind that

4242
02:37:44,150 --> 02:37:42,800
and that postulation might be

4243
02:37:49,590 --> 02:37:44,160
wrong

4244
02:37:51,750 --> 02:37:49,600
it this way it's remarkable that science

4245
02:37:54,550 --> 02:37:51,760
failed to get to that ultimate reality

4246
02:37:56,630 --> 02:37:54,560
so far so why should we expect it wait

4247
02:37:59,590 --> 02:37:56,640
what is the multiple reality i mean

4248
02:38:01,750 --> 02:37:59,600
quantum fields i mean we don't even

4249
02:38:03,590 --> 02:38:01,760
know exactly what is a quantum field

4250
02:38:06,070 --> 02:38:03,600
because of the complication of quantum

4251
02:38:07,590 --> 02:38:06,080
mechanics we know it's a classical field

4252
02:38:10,550 --> 02:38:07,600
um

4253
02:38:12,870 --> 02:38:10,560
manifests itself with particles

4254
02:38:15,030 --> 02:38:12,880
okay but particles are not real

4255
02:38:17,590 --> 02:38:15,040
so we are confused on the ultimate

4256
02:38:18,710 --> 02:38:17,600
reality even in contemporary physics

4257
02:38:21,670 --> 02:38:18,720
um

4258
02:38:22,550 --> 02:38:21,680
in contemporary physics uh today

4259
02:38:24,230 --> 02:38:22,560
uh

4260
02:38:26,230 --> 02:38:24,240
not to mention about in philosophy in

4261
02:38:29,670 --> 02:38:26,240
general what is ultimate reality matter

4262
02:38:31,429 --> 02:38:29,680
energy god spirits language

4263
02:38:34,150 --> 02:38:31,439
everybody came out with a with an

4264
02:38:35,910 --> 02:38:34,160
ultimate reality story and and failed to

4265
02:38:37,349 --> 02:38:35,920
convince the others

4266
02:38:39,110 --> 02:38:37,359
um

4267
02:38:43,590 --> 02:38:39,120
so

4268
02:38:50,230 --> 02:38:47,110
interesting is to de-emphasize

4269
02:38:52,150 --> 02:38:50,240
the notion of ultimate reality

4270
02:38:55,190 --> 02:38:52,160
and interesting interesting interesting

4271
02:38:56,790 --> 02:38:55,200
and use the word reality at level by

4272
02:38:58,870 --> 02:38:56,800
level i mean there's

4273
02:39:01,349 --> 02:38:58,880
surreal that there's a chair there but

4274
02:39:03,110 --> 02:39:01,359
he's also real that that chair is as

4275
02:39:04,790 --> 02:39:03,120
some illusory thing it's also real

4276
02:39:07,349 --> 02:39:04,800
there's just a bunch of atoms both

4277
02:39:09,190 --> 02:39:07,359
things are true

4278
02:39:11,349 --> 02:39:09,200
and within each context something is

4279
02:39:13,110 --> 02:39:11,359
real something is it's also and we can

4280
02:39:15,110 --> 02:39:13,120
add context at

4281
02:39:17,349 --> 02:39:15,120
levels in which is a better

4282
02:39:19,830 --> 02:39:17,359
understanding of reality

4283
02:39:21,590 --> 02:39:19,840
uh without getting trapped into oh my

4284
02:39:22,950 --> 02:39:21,600
god we don't have access to reality we

4285
02:39:24,070 --> 02:39:22,960
do have access to reality that's the

4286
02:39:25,670 --> 02:39:24,080
chat

4287
02:39:27,110 --> 02:39:25,680
okay i'll explain my thoughts what

4288
02:39:28,950 --> 02:39:27,120
occurs to me and then we can get the

4289
02:39:30,469 --> 02:39:28,960
rapid fire questions and answers just

4290
02:39:32,550 --> 02:39:30,479
from the audience because you've been so

4291
02:39:34,710 --> 02:39:32,560
generous with your time thank you

4292
02:39:36,469 --> 02:39:34,720
is that cool

4293
02:39:38,870 --> 02:39:36,479
absolutely okay

4294
02:39:40,870 --> 02:39:38,880
this has been a very philosophical

4295
02:39:42,870 --> 02:39:40,880
uh take little physics little loop

4296
02:39:44,309 --> 02:39:42,880
quantum gravity lipocrypt this is very

4297
02:39:45,349 --> 02:39:44,319
very good

4298
02:39:47,670 --> 02:39:45,359
i guess

4299
02:39:49,510 --> 02:39:47,680
basic philosophy of science and physics

4300
02:39:51,190 --> 02:39:49,520
understanding and

4301
02:39:53,429 --> 02:39:51,200
the nature of reality

4302
02:39:54,790 --> 02:39:53,439
let me recapitulate what you said so i

4303
02:39:56,150 --> 02:39:54,800
make sure that we're on the same page

4304
02:39:57,510 --> 02:39:56,160
there are different ways that we use the

4305
02:39:58,790 --> 02:39:57,520
word reality just like there are

4306
02:39:59,910 --> 02:39:58,800
different ways we use the word time and

4307
02:40:02,550 --> 02:39:59,920
just like there are different ways we

4308
02:40:04,389 --> 02:40:02,560
use the word almost any noun essentially

4309
02:40:05,750 --> 02:40:04,399
depending on the context so let's

4310
02:40:07,590 --> 02:40:05,760
imagine we can put these contexts in

4311
02:40:09,830 --> 02:40:07,600
separate boxes much of the confusion

4312
02:40:10,950 --> 02:40:09,840
occurs when we think

4313
02:40:13,030 --> 02:40:10,960
well we

4314
02:40:15,510 --> 02:40:13,040
mean

4315
02:40:17,510 --> 02:40:15,520
well much of much of miscommunication is

4316
02:40:19,190 --> 02:40:17,520
we intend it to be from box a but you

4317
02:40:21,590 --> 02:40:19,200
perceive it as from being from box b so

4318
02:40:24,150 --> 02:40:21,600
the contexts are mixed up

4319
02:40:26,150 --> 02:40:24,160
and what i was wondering is when it

4320
02:40:27,910 --> 02:40:26,160
comes to reality even within the same

4321
02:40:30,469 --> 02:40:27,920
context

4322
02:40:32,070 --> 02:40:30,479
i don't see there being an internally

4323
02:40:33,990 --> 02:40:32,080
consistent even within the context and

4324
02:40:35,510 --> 02:40:34,000
by the way you mentioned wittgenstein

4325
02:40:37,750 --> 02:40:35,520
wittgenstein had this notion of language

4326
02:40:39,190 --> 02:40:37,760
games i believe the language games would

4327
02:40:40,950 --> 02:40:39,200
be the equivalent of

4328
02:40:42,870 --> 02:40:40,960
context here boxes

4329
02:40:45,030 --> 02:40:42,880
i'm wondering if there's an internally

4330
02:40:47,110 --> 02:40:45,040
in an internally consistent notion of

4331
02:40:48,389 --> 02:40:47,120
reality

4332
02:40:49,429 --> 02:40:48,399
okay so

4333
02:40:51,030 --> 02:40:49,439
well

4334
02:40:53,349 --> 02:40:51,040
and then where was i going with that ah

4335
02:40:55,590 --> 02:40:53,359
ah okay now my

4336
02:40:58,070 --> 02:40:55,600
what i think is at least i haven't seen

4337
02:40:59,830 --> 02:40:58,080
any and any time i try to come up with

4338
02:41:02,469 --> 02:40:59,840
well i haven't seen any internally

4339
02:41:03,750 --> 02:41:02,479
consistent definition of reality

4340
02:41:05,510 --> 02:41:03,760
now there are a couple answers to that

4341
02:41:07,910 --> 02:41:05,520
one is

4342
02:41:10,070 --> 02:41:07,920
the donald hoffman method

4343
02:41:11,910 --> 02:41:10,080
forget it so it's there's no reality

4344
02:41:13,750 --> 02:41:11,920
it's all unreal in some sense then

4345
02:41:15,750 --> 02:41:13,760
there's the phenomenological answer the

4346
02:41:18,389 --> 02:41:15,760
phenomenology answer which is actually

4347
02:41:20,630 --> 02:41:18,399
all you experience is real it's real to

4348
02:41:21,990 --> 02:41:20,640
you even if you're schizophrenic and you

4349
02:41:23,990 --> 02:41:22,000
see a snake in front of you that's real

4350
02:41:25,590 --> 02:41:24,000
to you

4351
02:41:27,510 --> 02:41:25,600
but then you actually took a different

4352
02:41:29,510 --> 02:41:27,520
route which i never occurred which is

4353
02:41:31,670 --> 02:41:29,520
please stop using the word reality just

4354
02:41:33,110 --> 02:41:31,680
let's forget about it so am i making a

4355
02:41:36,630 --> 02:41:33,120
correct summary and if i'm in yeah just

4356
02:41:41,030 --> 02:41:36,640
correct yes yes yes yes yes uh please

4357
02:41:42,630 --> 02:41:41,040
stop uh using the word reality uh

4358
02:41:43,670 --> 02:41:42,640
unlabeled and

4359
02:41:46,550 --> 02:41:43,680
uh

4360
02:41:49,429 --> 02:41:46,560
divorce the context reality i mean use

4361
02:41:51,110 --> 02:41:49,439
use the word reality in each context

4362
02:41:52,630 --> 02:41:51,120
so

4363
02:41:54,710 --> 02:41:52,640
it's like we should have reality sub a

4364
02:41:55,510 --> 02:41:54,720
reality sub b and make sure that we're

4365
02:41:59,429 --> 02:41:55,520
in

4366
02:42:02,230 --> 02:41:59,439
this is false

4367
02:42:04,790 --> 02:42:02,240
but that's a movie it's all false in in

4368
02:42:05,590 --> 02:42:04,800
a different sense of real so the the

4369
02:42:06,550 --> 02:42:05,600
the

4370
02:42:08,550 --> 02:42:06,560
realize

4371
02:42:10,389 --> 02:42:08,560
there's a variety of meaning with in the

4372
02:42:11,269 --> 02:42:10,399
context in which you

4373
02:42:13,830 --> 02:42:11,279
uh

4374
02:42:15,269 --> 02:42:13,840
in which you you use it so in a context

4375
02:42:17,510 --> 02:42:15,279
we

4376
02:42:19,910 --> 02:42:17,520
give you context and i

4377
02:42:21,590 --> 02:42:19,920
i give you a much better definition of

4378
02:42:24,230 --> 02:42:21,600
reality okay

4379
02:42:27,830 --> 02:42:24,240
in the context of the miserable written

4380
02:42:29,990 --> 02:42:27,840
by victor lugo i can absolutely

4381
02:42:31,670 --> 02:42:30,000
uniquely see what is real and what is

4382
02:42:33,429 --> 02:42:31,680
not real what is real is what is written

4383
02:42:35,910 --> 02:42:33,439
in the book it's not real it's what you

4384
02:42:37,590 --> 02:42:35,920
add it's not written the book okay in

4385
02:42:38,630 --> 02:42:37,600
the context of the history of the united

4386
02:42:41,190 --> 02:42:38,640
states

4387
02:42:42,230 --> 02:42:41,200
it's absolutely real

4388
02:42:43,830 --> 02:42:42,240
maybe

4389
02:42:45,269 --> 02:42:43,840
when we can make a mistake but we know

4390
02:42:47,110 --> 02:42:45,279
that to make a mistake so we know what

4391
02:42:48,710 --> 02:42:47,120
is real was not real that you know

4392
02:42:51,030 --> 02:42:48,720
george washington

4393
02:42:52,469 --> 02:42:51,040
announces becoming a king whatever uh

4394
02:42:53,670 --> 02:42:52,479
whatever happens

4395
02:42:54,710 --> 02:42:53,680
um

4396
02:42:56,950 --> 02:42:54,720
so

4397
02:43:01,190 --> 02:42:56,960
context by context we have a

4398
02:43:03,830 --> 02:43:01,200
with a clean notion of of reality which

4399
02:43:04,120 --> 02:43:03,840
allows us to make distinction

4400
02:43:06,870 --> 02:43:04,130
um

4401
02:43:08,950 --> 02:43:06,880
[Music]

4402
02:43:10,870 --> 02:43:08,960
between real things and not real things

4403
02:43:13,750 --> 02:43:10,880
it's a unique

4404
02:43:16,790 --> 02:43:13,760
word real reality to reality real not

4405
02:43:22,150 --> 02:43:16,800
real outside all context

4406
02:43:26,630 --> 02:43:24,950
all right yeah so fast yep yep the

4407
02:43:29,349 --> 02:43:26,640
information paradox you said it's like

4408
02:43:31,030 --> 02:43:29,359
falling in love with holography and that

4409
02:43:32,309 --> 02:43:31,040
the entropy inside a black hole can be

4410
02:43:34,830 --> 02:43:32,319
different than the outside so can you

4411
02:43:37,750 --> 02:43:34,840
explain what you mean by

4412
02:43:39,510 --> 02:43:37,760
that yes um

4413
02:43:41,510 --> 02:43:39,520
right now in the uh

4414
02:43:43,429 --> 02:43:41,520
community of physicists

4415
02:43:45,349 --> 02:43:43,439
uh there have been a a

4416
02:43:47,349 --> 02:43:45,359
separation between two communities which

4417
02:43:49,110 --> 02:43:47,359
have completely different opinions

4418
02:43:51,030 --> 02:43:49,120
about the

4419
02:43:53,750 --> 02:43:51,040
black hole paradox

4420
02:43:55,429 --> 02:43:53,760
one community it's convinced that

4421
02:43:58,070 --> 02:43:55,439
there's a problem

4422
02:44:00,469 --> 02:43:58,080
the problem it's

4423
02:44:02,469 --> 02:44:00,479
before quantum gravity so before the end

4424
02:44:05,830 --> 02:44:02,479
of the evaporation

4425
02:44:08,309 --> 02:44:05,840
and the problem is due to the fact that

4426
02:44:09,750 --> 02:44:08,319
the black hole shrinks and people are

4427
02:44:11,670 --> 02:44:09,760
convinced

4428
02:44:12,870 --> 02:44:11,680
that the number of states of the black

4429
02:44:16,790 --> 02:44:12,880
hole

4430
02:44:19,349 --> 02:44:16,800
um it's bound by the area

4431
02:44:21,349 --> 02:44:19,359
by the pakistan um

4432
02:44:24,230 --> 02:44:21,359
hawking entropy

4433
02:44:27,110 --> 02:44:24,240
and therefore uh the problem is that the

4434
02:44:28,309 --> 02:44:27,120
state outside seems to be um

4435
02:44:30,230 --> 02:44:28,319
thermal

4436
02:44:33,190 --> 02:44:30,240
and uh

4437
02:44:34,950 --> 02:44:33,200
in pure state and

4438
02:44:36,309 --> 02:44:34,960
for that to be possible to save

4439
02:44:38,870 --> 02:44:36,319
unitarity

4440
02:44:40,389 --> 02:44:38,880
uh information should be somewhere

4441
02:44:42,550 --> 02:44:40,399
and the only place we could be

4442
02:44:44,150 --> 02:44:42,560
reasonably inside the black hole but

4443
02:44:45,349 --> 02:44:44,160
there are not enough states inside the

4444
02:44:46,550 --> 02:44:45,359
black hole

4445
02:44:48,469 --> 02:44:46,560
because of

4446
02:44:49,910 --> 02:44:48,479
horizon has shrunk

4447
02:44:53,510 --> 02:44:49,920
and this has

4448
02:44:55,190 --> 02:44:53,520
created a huge a huge problem

4449
02:44:56,870 --> 02:44:55,200
and

4450
02:44:58,630 --> 02:44:56,880
there are

4451
02:45:01,110 --> 02:44:58,640
complicated solutions which have been

4452
02:45:03,190 --> 02:45:01,120
studied today and people are sort of

4453
02:45:06,070 --> 02:45:03,200
getting convinced that this complicated

4454
02:45:07,990 --> 02:45:06,080
solution of the the way out

4455
02:45:10,070 --> 02:45:08,000
the other half of the community

4456
02:45:12,830 --> 02:45:10,080
which are most relativist and not

4457
02:45:14,309 --> 02:45:12,840
particle physics and people like me

4458
02:45:15,910 --> 02:45:14,319
um uh

4459
02:45:17,990 --> 02:45:15,920
don't just don't believe this story

4460
02:45:19,910 --> 02:45:18,000
absolutely because to create this

4461
02:45:21,750 --> 02:45:19,920
paradox you have to believe quantum

4462
02:45:24,230 --> 02:45:21,760
mechanics which is unitarian we all

4463
02:45:25,590 --> 02:45:24,240
expect quantum mechanics to be unity you

4464
02:45:27,190 --> 02:45:25,600
have to believe uh

4465
02:45:32,150 --> 02:45:27,200
uh

4466
02:45:34,870 --> 02:45:32,160
generativity holds and some

4467
02:45:36,150 --> 02:45:34,880
reasons we don't expect one to gravity

4468
02:45:39,110 --> 02:45:36,160
and

4469
02:45:41,269 --> 02:45:39,120
believe

4470
02:45:42,870 --> 02:45:41,279
an additional assumption

4471
02:45:45,349 --> 02:45:42,880
which is the number of black holes

4472
02:45:47,510 --> 02:45:45,359
states inside the black hole it's bound

4473
02:45:49,349 --> 02:45:47,520
by the area

4474
02:45:51,349 --> 02:45:49,359
and that

4475
02:45:53,590 --> 02:45:51,359
has no strong ground

4476
02:45:55,750 --> 02:45:53,600
people got in love with the idea

4477
02:45:57,190 --> 02:45:55,760
because there are calculations that

4478
02:45:59,190 --> 02:45:57,200
allow you to describe black hole in

4479
02:46:02,790 --> 02:45:59,200
terms of a final number of states bound

4480
02:46:03,590 --> 02:46:02,800
by the area but this is a description

4481
02:46:06,230 --> 02:46:03,600
uh

4482
02:46:08,389 --> 02:46:06,240
of what you see from the outside

4483
02:46:11,670 --> 02:46:08,399
as long as the horizon is an event

4484
02:46:13,670 --> 02:46:11,680
horizon it's horizon forever

4485
02:46:15,429 --> 02:46:13,680
and the horizon black hole is not an

4486
02:46:17,830 --> 02:46:15,439
eventualizer because at some point the

4487
02:46:18,950 --> 02:46:17,840
black hole becomes very small something

4488
02:46:21,030 --> 02:46:18,960
happens

4489
02:46:22,550 --> 02:46:21,040
and at that point it may very well be

4490
02:46:24,630 --> 02:46:22,560
that the big information which is

4491
02:46:25,830 --> 02:46:24,640
outside comes out

4492
02:46:28,230 --> 02:46:25,840
okay

4493
02:46:29,110 --> 02:46:28,240
and the confusion the subtle confusion

4494
02:46:30,550 --> 02:46:29,120
here

4495
02:46:33,510 --> 02:46:30,560
it's that

4496
02:46:36,710 --> 02:46:35,110
is used to say

4497
02:46:38,790 --> 02:46:36,720
that the phenomenon entropy is bounded

4498
02:46:40,790 --> 02:46:38,800
by the thermodynamical entropy namely

4499
02:46:42,309 --> 02:46:40,800
phenomena entropy is in

4500
02:46:43,830 --> 02:46:42,319
the the the

4501
02:46:45,990 --> 02:46:43,840
the amount of information due to the

4502
02:46:47,269 --> 02:46:46,000
entanglement between the inside the two

4503
02:46:49,349 --> 02:46:47,279
things

4504
02:46:50,790 --> 02:46:49,359
at the terminal entropy

4505
02:46:52,630 --> 02:46:50,800
count the number of state if you

4506
02:46:54,630 --> 02:46:52,640
interact terminally with something and

4507
02:46:56,309 --> 02:46:54,640
people say well of course for neumann

4508
02:46:57,590 --> 02:46:56,319
entropy it's bounded by the

4509
02:46:59,030 --> 02:46:57,600
thermodynamical entropy because the

4510
02:47:00,070 --> 02:46:59,040
thermodynamic entropy count the number

4511
02:47:02,070 --> 02:47:00,080
you'll see it if you don't have this

4512
02:47:03,349 --> 02:47:02,080
state you cannot have fun

4513
02:47:04,830 --> 02:47:03,359
phenomena

4514
02:47:06,950 --> 02:47:04,840
but that's wrong

4515
02:47:10,469 --> 02:47:06,960
because uh

4516
02:47:13,030 --> 02:47:10,479
if one part of of the interior system

4517
02:47:15,190 --> 02:47:13,040
is thermally disconnected you can still

4518
02:47:18,070 --> 02:47:15,200
have a big volume and entropy

4519
02:47:19,670 --> 02:47:18,080
and a decreasing thermodynamical entropy

4520
02:47:22,070 --> 02:47:19,680
and that's exactly what happened in

4521
02:47:23,510 --> 02:47:22,080
black holes

4522
02:47:27,269 --> 02:47:23,520
and

4523
02:47:29,349 --> 02:47:27,279
people who are sort of blinded by

4524
02:47:33,590 --> 02:47:29,359
over excessive

4525
02:47:36,870 --> 02:47:33,600
taking a strong version of holography

4526
02:47:38,070 --> 02:47:36,880
just don't see that very basic

4527
02:47:40,309 --> 02:47:38,080
point

4528
02:47:41,590 --> 02:47:40,319
and don't see that if you give a full

4529
02:47:43,429 --> 02:47:41,600
description

4530
02:47:45,910 --> 02:47:43,439
that include what happened after the end

4531
02:47:47,830 --> 02:47:45,920
of evaporation you can have a phenomenon

4532
02:47:50,150 --> 02:47:47,840
to be much larger than the thermodynamic

4533
02:47:51,910 --> 02:47:50,160
enterprise simply talking the whole of

4534
02:47:53,349 --> 02:47:51,920
the black hole shrinks becomes smaller

4535
02:47:55,429 --> 02:47:53,359
and smaller and smaller

4536
02:47:58,309 --> 02:47:55,439
where the backhoe evaporates

4537
02:48:00,150 --> 02:47:58,319
but the inside remains very big there's

4538
02:48:01,590 --> 02:48:00,160
a lot of information there

4539
02:48:02,790 --> 02:48:01,600
which is not lost

4540
02:48:04,389 --> 02:48:02,800
where the black hole ends the

4541
02:48:06,469 --> 02:48:04,399
evaporation when you say the inside

4542
02:48:07,510 --> 02:48:06,479
remember slowly comes out the inside of

4543
02:48:08,870 --> 02:48:07,520
yeah

4544
02:48:14,309 --> 02:48:08,880
the black hole

4545
02:48:16,389 --> 02:48:14,319
yep the horizon and then there is an

4546
02:48:18,150 --> 02:48:16,399
inside which is very very big that's the

4547
02:48:20,630 --> 02:48:18,160
point i mean you can have a

4548
02:48:23,429 --> 02:48:20,640
very very big spatial

4549
02:48:26,309 --> 02:48:23,439
space like surfaces are huge

4550
02:48:28,070 --> 02:48:26,319
okay and that's where the information is

4551
02:48:29,670 --> 02:48:28,080
and at the end of evaporation now we're

4552
02:48:31,269 --> 02:48:29,680
in quantum gravity and with loop quantum

4553
02:48:32,309 --> 02:48:31,279
gravity you can do calculations to what

4554
02:48:34,309 --> 02:48:32,319
happened

4555
02:48:35,830 --> 02:48:34,319
and you there's there's a quantum

4556
02:48:38,070 --> 02:48:35,840
transition to a region in which the

4557
02:48:39,990 --> 02:48:38,080
inside is still there and slowly it

4558
02:48:41,830 --> 02:48:40,000
leaks out all the information

4559
02:48:43,750 --> 02:48:41,840
so i think that there's a

4560
02:48:47,349 --> 02:48:43,760
perfectly

4561
02:48:52,630 --> 02:48:50,070
which shows that it's not true

4562
02:48:54,630 --> 02:48:52,640
that is a black hole information problem

4563
02:48:55,990 --> 02:48:54,640
the belief in the black hole information

4564
02:48:58,870 --> 02:48:56,000
problem

4565
02:49:01,269 --> 02:48:58,880
is based on a

4566
02:49:06,469 --> 02:49:01,279
a dogma

4567
02:49:08,469 --> 02:49:06,479
supported by by anything

4568
02:49:10,070 --> 02:49:08,479
that the

4569
02:49:12,710 --> 02:49:10,080
uh the number of states of black hole

4570
02:49:14,870 --> 02:49:12,720
computer from the outside also include

4571
02:49:16,950 --> 02:49:14,880
the information inside

4572
02:49:18,550 --> 02:49:16,960
in popular science you always hear that

4573
02:49:19,830 --> 02:49:18,560
when someone falls into the black hole

4574
02:49:21,269 --> 02:49:19,840
you won't see them

4575
02:49:22,630 --> 02:49:21,279
well you'll see them freeze right at the

4576
02:49:24,150 --> 02:49:22,640
horizon

4577
02:49:27,990 --> 02:49:24,160
and there you'll see their watch frozen

4578
02:49:29,670 --> 02:49:28,000
too now if the black hole event yeah

4579
02:49:30,790 --> 02:49:29,680
yeah

4580
02:49:31,910 --> 02:49:30,800
this is

4581
02:49:33,750 --> 02:49:31,920
we don't know that because that's the

4582
02:49:36,550 --> 02:49:33,760
benefit of gravity see that's that's

4583
02:49:37,670 --> 02:49:36,560
exactly the that's exactly the problem

4584
02:49:39,510 --> 02:49:37,680
uh

4585
02:49:42,230 --> 02:49:39,520
when time goes on

4586
02:49:43,990 --> 02:49:42,240
okay you see what you see somebody is

4587
02:49:45,590 --> 02:49:44,000
crossing the black hole

4588
02:49:47,190 --> 02:49:45,600
so the person crossing black hole of

4589
02:49:49,750 --> 02:49:47,200
course crosses it like oh i mean nothing

4590
02:49:51,110 --> 02:49:49,760
particular happened crossing the horizon

4591
02:49:53,190 --> 02:49:51,120
just normal

4592
02:49:56,150 --> 02:49:53,200
normal time going back

4593
02:49:57,750 --> 02:49:56,160
but the light rays that it emits

4594
02:50:01,110 --> 02:49:57,760
uh gets to you

4595
02:50:03,590 --> 02:50:01,120
later and later and later and later okay

4596
02:50:06,469 --> 02:50:03,600
now if the horizon is an eventerizer so

4597
02:50:09,030 --> 02:50:06,479
if the horizon stays there forever yeah

4598
02:50:11,750 --> 02:50:09,040
you can go to infinity and you only see

4599
02:50:14,230 --> 02:50:11,760
the person before crossing

4600
02:50:15,830 --> 02:50:14,240
but we don't know in fact the the rise

4601
02:50:17,830 --> 02:50:15,840
is not an element right the rise does

4602
02:50:19,429 --> 02:50:17,840
not go to infinity because at some point

4603
02:50:21,349 --> 02:50:19,439
the black hole becomes plunkin and

4604
02:50:22,950 --> 02:50:21,359
that's where in quantum gravity and when

4605
02:50:24,870 --> 02:50:22,960
in quantum gravity there is a quantum

4606
02:50:26,309 --> 02:50:24,880
transition

4607
02:50:28,389 --> 02:50:26,319
after which

4608
02:50:31,190 --> 02:50:28,399
the information outside can go outside

4609
02:50:33,190 --> 02:50:31,200
okay so if you wait long enough

4610
02:50:34,870 --> 02:50:33,200
you see inside the black hole

4611
02:50:37,269 --> 02:50:34,880
interesting that's the point

4612
02:50:38,790 --> 02:50:37,279
interesting okay next one do you find

4613
02:50:40,870 --> 02:50:38,800
that your ability to learn let's say

4614
02:50:42,790 --> 02:50:40,880
math and physics has increased with age

4615
02:50:47,030 --> 02:50:42,800
or decreased

4616
02:50:50,389 --> 02:50:47,040
decreased decreased much decreased i uh

4617
02:50:52,389 --> 02:50:50,399
when i was in my 20s i could take a

4618
02:50:55,349 --> 02:50:52,399
complicated mathematically complicated

4619
02:50:56,710 --> 02:50:55,359
paper just sit down on a chair and

4620
02:50:58,870 --> 02:50:56,720
read it through and i would get

4621
02:51:00,469 --> 02:50:58,880
everything easily

4622
02:51:03,269 --> 02:51:00,479
and then it slowly became more

4623
02:51:06,070 --> 02:51:03,279
complicated and now in my 60s i struggle

4624
02:51:08,870 --> 02:51:06,080
i go slow i read less papers so my

4625
02:51:11,190 --> 02:51:08,880
capacity to learn is decreasing

4626
02:51:13,590 --> 02:51:11,200
and also

4627
02:51:16,550 --> 02:51:13,600
i think my flexibility

4628
02:51:18,950 --> 02:51:16,560
of thinking is going down i tend to know

4629
02:51:20,630 --> 02:51:18,960
much more things before i have much more

4630
02:51:22,630 --> 02:51:20,640
developed views

4631
02:51:24,630 --> 02:51:22,640
before i know more things

4632
02:51:25,990 --> 02:51:24,640
i see when other people are wrong

4633
02:51:27,349 --> 02:51:26,000
because i know things they don't know

4634
02:51:29,269 --> 02:51:27,359
it's happened much more often than

4635
02:51:31,349 --> 02:51:29,279
before i mean it's easy to see the

4636
02:51:32,950 --> 02:51:31,359
mistakes of the others because because i

4637
02:51:34,710 --> 02:51:32,960
know more things everybody getting

4638
02:51:36,150 --> 02:51:34,720
colder no small things

4639
02:51:37,349 --> 02:51:36,160
so that's why all the people why is it

4640
02:51:39,750 --> 02:51:37,359
but also

4641
02:51:40,870 --> 02:51:39,760
i'm more stupid because i'm more trapped

4642
02:51:42,630 --> 02:51:40,880
in my own thinking i have more

4643
02:51:45,670 --> 02:51:42,640
difficulty of coming out from my own

4644
02:51:48,710 --> 02:51:47,030
what would you have done differently in

4645
02:51:49,990 --> 02:51:48,720
the development of your theory it could

4646
02:51:51,590 --> 02:51:50,000
be as simple as i would have spent more

4647
02:51:53,429 --> 02:51:51,600
time going for walks with lee than

4648
02:51:55,750 --> 02:51:53,439
sitting down or i would have spent more

4649
02:51:58,070 --> 02:51:55,760
time thinking about

4650
02:51:59,910 --> 02:51:58,080
about holography like ads cfd

4651
02:52:01,670 --> 02:51:59,920
correspondence for whatever reason or

4652
02:52:03,349 --> 02:52:01,680
you would have spent less time arguing

4653
02:52:05,030 --> 02:52:03,359
with your like what is it that you would

4654
02:52:10,150 --> 02:52:05,040
have done differently in the development

4655
02:52:17,910 --> 02:52:11,510
um

4656
02:52:23,910 --> 02:52:20,630
people have raised objections

4657
02:52:28,230 --> 02:52:25,750
i got convinced that these objections

4658
02:52:31,269 --> 02:52:28,240
were wrong

4659
02:52:33,269 --> 02:52:31,279
and i just ignored

4660
02:52:36,950 --> 02:52:33,279
that and just

4661
02:52:36,960 --> 02:52:39,269
and

4662
02:52:57,110 --> 02:52:40,150
i

4663
02:52:58,070 --> 02:52:57,120
um

4664
02:53:17,510 --> 02:52:58,080
i

4665
02:53:19,349 --> 02:53:17,520
um

4666
02:53:21,670 --> 02:53:19,359
and and go my own way and something

4667
02:53:23,590 --> 02:53:21,680
sometimes works very well

4668
02:53:26,309 --> 02:53:23,600
but sometimes has

4669
02:53:27,750 --> 02:53:26,319
you know created long misunderstanding

4670
02:53:30,150 --> 02:53:27,760
so i should have

4671
02:53:32,710 --> 02:53:30,160
more engaged with with criticism trying

4672
02:53:33,670 --> 02:53:32,720
to respond and be more

4673
02:53:37,910 --> 02:53:33,680
more

4674
02:53:39,830 --> 02:53:37,920
part of the group and just debating with

4675
02:53:41,429 --> 02:53:39,840
the group

4676
02:53:43,269 --> 02:53:41,439
okay this question comes from stefan

4677
02:53:45,830 --> 02:53:43,279
alexander he's a professor of

4678
02:53:47,990 --> 02:53:45,840
theoretical physics and i know he's a

4679
02:53:49,910 --> 02:53:48,000
great guy great great he's the writer of

4680
02:53:51,510 --> 02:53:49,920
fear of black universe fear of a black

4681
02:53:53,190 --> 02:53:51,520
universe and the link to that is in the

4682
02:53:55,349 --> 02:53:53,200
description also i'll be speaking with

4683
02:53:57,670 --> 02:53:55,359
stefan so that's either out or

4684
02:53:59,349 --> 02:53:57,680
coming up how does time play into

4685
02:54:00,630 --> 02:53:59,359
quantum gravity

4686
02:54:02,070 --> 02:54:00,640
you've mentioned it plays into quantum

4687
02:54:05,349 --> 02:54:02,080
mechanics does it play into quantum

4688
02:54:09,349 --> 02:54:07,670
um

4689
02:54:11,349 --> 02:54:09,359
it does not

4690
02:54:13,269 --> 02:54:11,359
i think that's uh

4691
02:54:15,670 --> 02:54:13,279
that's the bottom line also my book once

4692
02:54:18,469 --> 02:54:15,680
you go to quantum gravity

4693
02:54:20,469 --> 02:54:18,479
uh you better forget entirely

4694
02:54:21,990 --> 02:54:20,479
the the word time

4695
02:54:24,230 --> 02:54:22,000
just forget about it

4696
02:54:26,070 --> 02:54:24,240
you have a bunch of variables

4697
02:54:27,750 --> 02:54:26,080
which describe the gravitational fields

4698
02:54:29,590 --> 02:54:27,760
and the terminic fields whatever fields

4699
02:54:31,030 --> 02:54:29,600
are around whatever is

4700
02:54:33,269 --> 02:54:31,040
it's it's your

4701
02:54:34,870 --> 02:54:33,279
ingredients as far as we know today

4702
02:54:37,349 --> 02:54:34,880
these are the ingredients of the world

4703
02:54:39,269 --> 02:54:37,359
electrons quarks uh electromagnetic

4704
02:54:41,750 --> 02:54:39,279
field gravitation

4705
02:54:43,590 --> 02:54:41,760
and uh you have

4706
02:54:45,990 --> 02:54:43,600
relations

4707
02:54:48,950 --> 02:54:46,000
uh between these

4708
02:54:51,510 --> 02:54:48,960
which you think in terms of uh

4709
02:54:53,670 --> 02:54:51,520
uh there is a quantum region

4710
02:54:55,349 --> 02:54:53,680
if you want a space-time region

4711
02:54:57,910 --> 02:54:55,359
and outside

4712
02:55:00,150 --> 02:54:57,920
if if i if i see something

4713
02:55:01,269 --> 02:55:00,160
around what is the probability of seeing

4714
02:55:03,590 --> 02:55:01,279
that

4715
02:55:05,670 --> 02:55:03,600
and you don't have to say

4716
02:55:07,429 --> 02:55:05,680
how much time has passed which one is a

4717
02:55:09,910 --> 02:55:07,439
time variable

4718
02:55:11,510 --> 02:55:09,920
that comes out naturally

4719
02:55:14,150 --> 02:55:11,520
because

4720
02:55:16,309 --> 02:55:14,160
if the classical limit of the amplitudes

4721
02:55:18,950 --> 02:55:16,319
turn out to be correct they just give

4722
02:55:21,110 --> 02:55:18,960
generativity so in the classical limit

4723
02:55:23,590 --> 02:55:21,120
you have space times evolving and then

4724
02:55:26,309 --> 02:55:23,600
you can you know uh time is just

4725
02:55:29,030 --> 02:55:26,319
whatever passes around the time like

4726
02:55:31,190 --> 02:55:29,040
gold line but in the fundamental quantum

4727
02:55:34,070 --> 02:55:31,200
gravity theory just forget about time

4728
02:55:36,550 --> 02:55:34,080
entirely don't talk about that

4729
02:55:37,830 --> 02:55:36,560
time has in the various meaning in which

4730
02:55:40,790 --> 02:55:37,840
we

4731
02:55:42,870 --> 02:55:40,800
uh

4732
02:55:43,750 --> 02:55:42,880
it's just something that happens at

4733
02:55:46,230 --> 02:55:43,760
later

4734
02:55:48,230 --> 02:55:46,240
approximations the space time comes at

4735
02:55:50,790 --> 02:55:48,240
the large scale approximation and

4736
02:55:53,030 --> 02:55:50,800
oriented time comes from thermodynamics

4737
02:55:55,670 --> 02:55:53,040
in quantum gravity the only temporal

4738
02:55:57,670 --> 02:55:55,680
notion it's very weak is that you

4739
02:55:58,870 --> 02:55:57,680
describe process so what you describe is

4740
02:55:59,670 --> 02:55:58,880
a process

4741
02:56:46,870 --> 02:55:59,680
a

4742
02:56:48,389 --> 02:56:46,880
does the notion

4743
02:56:52,309 --> 02:56:48,399
that everything is relational not lead

4744
02:56:56,150 --> 02:56:54,070
it's turtle salted way down in my

4745
02:56:57,990 --> 02:56:56,160
opinion

4746
02:57:00,070 --> 02:56:58,000
and i think what uh what

4747
02:57:02,870 --> 02:57:00,080
uh i mean

4748
02:57:05,190 --> 02:57:02,880
i i think the basic uh

4749
02:57:06,950 --> 02:57:05,200
i mean i know of course uh

4750
02:57:10,150 --> 02:57:06,960
bananas uh

4751
02:57:12,790 --> 02:57:10,160
uh cultural uh um ideas

4752
02:57:14,150 --> 02:57:12,800
he defended a rather strong version of

4753
02:57:17,830 --> 02:57:14,160
idealism

4754
02:57:19,670 --> 02:57:17,840
in which um everything is mental

4755
02:57:22,469 --> 02:57:19,680
and uh um

4756
02:57:24,469 --> 02:57:22,479
i think that the mental phenomena

4757
02:57:26,469 --> 02:57:24,479
are not

4758
02:57:35,269 --> 02:57:26,479
more

4759
02:57:38,309 --> 02:57:35,279
the

4760
02:57:40,309 --> 02:57:38,319
phenomena

4761
02:57:41,510 --> 02:57:40,319
in fact i think if

4762
02:57:43,910 --> 02:57:41,520
if there is a

4763
02:57:45,830 --> 02:57:43,920
dependence relation the dependence

4764
02:57:46,630 --> 02:57:45,840
relation is other way around

4765
02:57:47,510 --> 02:57:46,640
so

4766
02:57:48,550 --> 02:57:47,520
um

4767
02:57:50,230 --> 02:57:48,560
if you want to understand mental

4768
02:57:52,309 --> 02:57:50,240
phenomena

4769
02:57:54,389 --> 02:57:52,319
we understand them better

4770
02:57:56,550 --> 02:57:54,399
starting from physical facts and from

4771
02:57:57,830 --> 02:57:56,560
that deriving mental phenomena

4772
02:57:59,510 --> 02:57:57,840
um

4773
02:58:01,830 --> 02:57:59,520
the other way around doesn't work in my

4774
02:58:03,510 --> 02:58:01,840
opinion the other way around leaves us

4775
02:58:05,190 --> 02:58:03,520
the impossibility of doing science we

4776
02:58:06,630 --> 02:58:05,200
don't derive physical phenomena from

4777
02:58:07,990 --> 02:58:06,640
mental phenomena but the other way

4778
02:58:09,750 --> 02:58:08,000
around we do

4779
02:58:11,030 --> 02:58:09,760
so of the two

4780
02:58:13,510 --> 02:58:11,040
uh

4781
02:58:16,830 --> 02:58:13,520
physically in a large sense

4782
02:58:20,469 --> 02:58:16,840
uh i don't mean material i'm in

4783
02:58:21,349 --> 02:58:20,479
physics systems interacting hypothesis

4784
02:58:22,150 --> 02:58:21,359
uh

4785
02:58:23,910 --> 02:58:22,160
are

4786
02:58:24,950 --> 02:58:23,920
more fundamental in sense of the ground

4787
02:58:26,790 --> 02:58:24,960
better

4788
02:58:30,070 --> 02:58:26,800
mental phenomena i think the

4789
02:58:33,750 --> 02:58:30,080
the mistake of idealism is to

4790
02:58:36,630 --> 02:58:33,760
don't see uh

4791
02:58:37,010 --> 02:58:36,640
one of the main insight

4792
02:58:38,309 --> 02:58:37,020
um

4793
02:58:41,349 --> 02:58:38,319
[Music]

4794
02:58:47,750 --> 02:58:42,469
in

4795
02:58:49,429 --> 02:58:47,760
the mental is as illusory

4796
02:58:53,190 --> 02:58:49,439
in in buddhist language as the external

4797
02:58:55,110 --> 02:58:53,200
world so the self is us

4798
02:58:56,790 --> 02:58:55,120
left um

4799
02:58:57,910 --> 02:58:56,800
less

4800
02:59:01,030 --> 02:58:57,920
founded

4801
02:59:02,790 --> 02:59:01,040
as this glass or this pen

4802
02:59:04,790 --> 02:59:02,800
um when i think about myself the

4803
02:59:07,030 --> 02:59:04,800
illusion of this is the cartesian

4804
02:59:08,790 --> 02:59:07,040
illusion this is evident

4805
02:59:09,990 --> 02:59:08,800
this is immediate this cannot be

4806
02:59:11,190 --> 02:59:10,000
discounted

4807
02:59:12,389 --> 02:59:11,200
it's wrong

4808
02:59:14,550 --> 02:59:12,399
um

4809
02:59:17,670 --> 02:59:14,560
if there's anything what is evident for

4810
02:59:20,309 --> 02:59:17,680
me is this pen is not me then me it's a

4811
02:59:22,950 --> 02:59:20,319
complicated cultural construct social

4812
02:59:24,550 --> 02:59:22,960
construct cultural construct what i

4813
02:59:26,870 --> 02:59:24,560
directly know about the world is that

4814
02:59:29,349 --> 02:59:26,880
there is this pen

4815
02:59:31,510 --> 02:59:29,359
uh i if you say well there is also you

4816
02:59:33,750 --> 02:59:31,520
in the world i say oh yeah it's also me

4817
02:59:35,190 --> 02:59:33,760
and what is me i have to i have to do so

4818
02:59:37,030 --> 02:59:35,200
a reflection

4819
02:59:38,150 --> 02:59:37,040
a story of thinking and if you read the

4820
02:59:40,150 --> 02:59:38,160
card

4821
02:59:43,670 --> 02:59:40,160
there's a logo of this idea

4822
02:59:45,030 --> 02:59:43,680
the card never said that um

4823
02:59:46,309 --> 02:59:45,040
the self

4824
02:59:48,230 --> 02:59:46,319
it's immediate

4825
02:59:49,910 --> 02:59:48,240
he said if you start doubting then you

4826
02:59:51,590 --> 02:59:49,920
go through a complicated cultural

4827
02:59:53,429 --> 02:59:51,600
process of doubting

4828
02:59:54,790 --> 02:59:53,439
which is due to his culture his

4829
02:59:57,110 --> 02:59:54,800
philosophies

4830
02:59:58,710 --> 02:59:57,120
and this leads him

4831
03:00:00,790 --> 02:59:58,720
to thinking about the self and they

4832
03:00:02,070 --> 03:00:00,800
think if i'm doubting them and thinking

4833
03:00:03,990 --> 03:00:02,080
if i'm thinking there should be

4834
03:00:06,389 --> 03:00:04,000
something thinking is this thinking the

4835
03:00:08,389 --> 03:00:06,399
self but the something thinking is not

4836
03:00:10,790 --> 03:00:08,399
the self it's a symbol of the processes

4837
03:00:12,230 --> 03:00:10,800
that matter does in my brain

4838
03:00:14,550 --> 03:00:12,240
so that's why i disagree with the idea

4839
03:00:16,790 --> 03:00:14,560
it is

4840
03:00:18,550 --> 03:00:16,800
why is it that the mental states and the

4841
03:00:20,710 --> 03:00:18,560
self are are they equivalent in your

4842
03:00:21,990 --> 03:00:20,720
mind in your mind are they no they're

4843
03:00:23,510 --> 03:00:22,000
two different things no they're two

4844
03:00:25,429 --> 03:00:23,520
different things of course they're two

4845
03:00:27,990 --> 03:00:25,439
different things the self is a it's a

4846
03:00:29,670 --> 03:00:28,000
it's uh um

4847
03:00:32,070 --> 03:00:29,680
let me not define the self uh there's

4848
03:00:34,070 --> 03:00:32,080
only something sure states as uh other

4849
03:00:35,110 --> 03:00:34,080
than men but i think that

4850
03:00:37,510 --> 03:00:35,120
um

4851
03:00:38,710 --> 03:00:37,520
what i said applied to both

4852
03:00:40,870 --> 03:00:38,720
and of course

4853
03:00:42,870 --> 03:00:40,880
the card was talking about the self

4854
03:00:43,910 --> 03:00:42,880
uh some people talk about mental state

4855
03:00:46,950 --> 03:00:43,920
in the in

4856
03:00:48,870 --> 03:00:46,960
um i think both are

4857
03:00:50,830 --> 03:00:48,880
like chairs

4858
03:00:56,070 --> 03:00:50,840
complicated construction we use to

4859
03:01:00,710 --> 03:00:58,469
uh you mentioned that science would be

4860
03:01:04,070 --> 03:01:00,720
difficult or if not impossible to do if

4861
03:01:06,469 --> 03:01:04,080
idealism was correct why can't we just

4862
03:01:08,230 --> 03:01:06,479
say see for me the way that i see

4863
03:01:10,389 --> 03:01:08,240
science is that science doesn't

4864
03:01:11,910 --> 03:01:10,399
presume a metaphysics it doesn't

4865
03:01:13,990 --> 03:01:11,920
actually say whether

4866
03:01:16,309 --> 03:01:14,000
there's an immaterial or material or

4867
03:01:17,910 --> 03:01:16,319
mental reality it's like a method now

4868
03:01:19,269 --> 03:01:17,920
people can disagree with the definition

4869
03:01:22,469 --> 03:01:19,279
of science

4870
03:01:25,030 --> 03:01:22,479
regardless why can't

4871
03:01:26,950 --> 03:01:25,040
idealism be correct and simply say

4872
03:01:28,790 --> 03:01:26,960
there are regularities to these mental

4873
03:01:31,670 --> 03:01:28,800
states and we see these regularities

4874
03:01:33,190 --> 03:01:31,680
these patterns of perception and we call

4875
03:01:35,110 --> 03:01:33,200
that physics

4876
03:01:41,590 --> 03:01:35,120
and we perform science that just as we

4877
03:01:47,269 --> 03:01:43,110
sure sure no i

4878
03:01:50,070 --> 03:01:49,030
science is neutral

4879
03:01:52,550 --> 03:01:50,080
uh

4880
03:01:54,790 --> 03:01:52,560
but if i want to use

4881
03:01:56,309 --> 03:01:54,800
science uh

4882
03:01:58,630 --> 03:01:56,319
what i was saying is something much more

4883
03:02:02,389 --> 03:01:58,640
uh much less philosophical if you want

4884
03:02:05,269 --> 03:02:02,399
um if i want you to if i want

4885
03:02:07,349 --> 03:02:05,279
to use science to make a story about how

4886
03:02:10,230 --> 03:02:07,359
mental state can emerge

4887
03:02:11,910 --> 03:02:10,240
from configuration of the brain i've

4888
03:02:13,830 --> 03:02:11,920
i have a

4889
03:02:15,590 --> 03:02:13,840
a path that i can follow in fact many

4890
03:02:17,910 --> 03:02:15,600
people are following today this path i

4891
03:02:20,070 --> 03:02:17,920
mean there's a big

4892
03:02:21,670 --> 03:02:20,080
neuroscience

4893
03:02:23,990 --> 03:02:21,680
literature

4894
03:02:27,030 --> 03:02:24,000
very extremely interesting which is

4895
03:02:30,469 --> 03:02:27,040
precisely describing how

4896
03:02:34,389 --> 03:02:30,479
mental states add the notion of a self

4897
03:02:35,830 --> 03:02:34,399
um can emerge in a in a the complicated

4898
03:02:39,269 --> 03:02:35,840
uh sort of uh

4899
03:02:41,990 --> 03:02:39,279
neurological biological and evolutionary

4900
03:02:44,469 --> 03:02:42,000
story of our brain so

4901
03:02:46,469 --> 03:02:44,479
science allows us to make a story which

4902
03:02:49,190 --> 03:02:46,479
is incomplete but is in in in the

4903
03:02:51,590 --> 03:02:49,200
working about how mental state emerge in

4904
03:02:53,750 --> 03:02:51,600
the world in the same sense in which it

4905
03:02:55,510 --> 03:02:53,760
allows us to make a story in which how

4906
03:02:57,750 --> 03:02:55,520
is that a chair emerging the world i

4907
03:02:59,269 --> 03:02:57,760
mean how it's built by wood and and and

4908
03:03:01,670 --> 03:02:59,279
built by a civilization they want to sit

4909
03:03:04,389 --> 03:03:01,680
down and so on and so forth

4910
03:03:06,469 --> 03:03:04,399
while so so there's it can be done that

4911
03:03:08,309 --> 03:03:06,479
can be addressed by science

4912
03:03:10,630 --> 03:03:08,319
um

4913
03:03:11,510 --> 03:03:10,640
the the the the the

4914
03:03:14,230 --> 03:03:11,520
the

4915
03:03:20,309 --> 03:03:15,670
doesn't block science it's a sense to

4916
03:03:24,550 --> 03:03:23,190
perception or whatever and and and as i

4917
03:03:25,269 --> 03:03:24,560
described them

4918
03:03:26,870 --> 03:03:25,279
but

4919
03:03:29,750 --> 03:03:26,880
it doesn't allow

4920
03:03:32,630 --> 03:03:29,760
to do the same story to see how

4921
03:03:34,630 --> 03:03:32,640
um i can uh

4922
03:03:37,590 --> 03:03:34,640
out of a pure

4923
03:03:41,110 --> 03:03:39,030
state

4924
03:03:42,630 --> 03:03:41,120
necessarily

4925
03:03:44,389 --> 03:03:42,640
reconstruct the

4926
03:03:46,150 --> 03:03:44,399
the opposite world in other words

4927
03:03:48,469 --> 03:03:46,160
if i'm an idealistic

4928
03:03:50,070 --> 03:03:48,479
i don't have any other

4929
03:03:51,750 --> 03:03:50,080
scientific program except the ones

4930
03:03:54,469 --> 03:03:51,760
that's already there i can

4931
03:03:56,150 --> 03:03:54,479
describe chemistry physics but not the

4932
03:03:57,110 --> 03:03:56,160
relation between the mental and the

4933
03:04:00,389 --> 03:03:57,120
physical

4934
03:04:02,389 --> 03:04:00,399
well if i am a materialist in some wide

4935
03:04:04,710 --> 03:04:02,399
sense in large sense because narrow

4936
03:04:07,590 --> 03:04:04,720
material is most it doesn't work i mean

4937
03:04:10,230 --> 03:04:07,600
the world is not paid by stones

4938
03:04:12,309 --> 03:04:10,240
then i have an additional

4939
03:04:14,550 --> 03:04:12,319
program that i can do try to make sense

4940
03:04:17,429 --> 03:04:14,560
of mental state on the basis of physical

4941
03:04:21,510 --> 03:04:19,429
why can't an idealist say we can still

4942
03:04:23,590 --> 03:04:21,520
do that look instead of saying how does

4943
03:04:25,670 --> 03:04:23,600
mentality or how does mind states come

4944
03:04:27,429 --> 03:04:25,680
about from non-mine states like that's

4945
03:04:29,590 --> 03:04:27,439
essentially what you're saying before

4946
03:04:31,510 --> 03:04:29,600
why don't we just say well it's all

4947
03:04:33,990 --> 03:04:31,520
mind-like it's all pan-psychic in some

4948
03:04:35,750 --> 03:04:34,000
manner but certain configurations of

4949
03:04:37,190 --> 03:04:35,760
this mind state which

4950
03:04:39,110 --> 03:04:37,200
you can translate as matter certain

4951
03:04:41,190 --> 03:04:39,120
configurations of this matter

4952
03:04:43,349 --> 03:04:41,200
amplify the already existing

4953
03:04:46,790 --> 03:04:43,359
consciousness so you can still perform

4954
03:04:49,269 --> 03:04:46,800
neurobiology and neural correlates

4955
03:04:51,190 --> 03:04:49,279
in the same manner so why does thinking

4956
03:04:53,030 --> 03:04:51,200
of the world idealistically preclude

4957
03:04:54,630 --> 03:04:53,040
that i see it as just well you can just

4958
03:04:56,309 --> 03:04:54,640
say well we want to know what

4959
03:04:57,990 --> 03:04:56,319
configurations produce what states of

4960
03:04:58,950 --> 03:04:58,000
consciousness and what levels of

4961
03:05:09,190 --> 03:04:58,960
awareness and levels of

4962
03:05:12,389 --> 03:05:10,870
i don't know anybody in neuroscience and

4963
03:05:14,230 --> 03:05:12,399
thinks oh

4964
03:05:16,870 --> 03:05:14,240
no that's not true there are people in

4965
03:05:20,630 --> 03:05:16,880
neuroscience that may think that way

4966
03:05:22,309 --> 03:05:20,640
maybe tononi thinks in that way of um

4967
03:05:24,309 --> 03:05:22,319
any almost any of the theories of

4968
03:05:25,590 --> 03:05:24,319
consciousness that i've found

4969
03:05:27,349 --> 03:05:25,600
and i've been studying this for this

4970
03:05:28,790 --> 03:05:27,359
channel it's like

4971
03:05:30,389 --> 03:05:28,800
it can be applied to the universe and

4972
03:05:32,070 --> 03:05:30,399
then you find that there's some low

4973
03:05:34,230 --> 03:05:32,080
grade level of consciousness applied to

4974
03:05:36,550 --> 03:05:34,240
the universe as a whole anyway at least

4975
03:05:38,630 --> 03:05:36,560
tononi i think he's moving

4976
03:05:40,150 --> 03:05:38,640
in that direction i think he said that

4977
03:05:42,309 --> 03:05:40,160
his

4978
03:05:43,750 --> 03:05:42,319
iit i believe it's called integrated

4979
03:05:46,150 --> 03:05:43,760
information theory

4980
03:05:47,429 --> 03:05:46,160
implies pan psychism in some weak sense

4981
03:05:49,590 --> 03:05:47,439
either way you understand what i was

4982
03:05:51,830 --> 03:05:49,600
saying before i so you were making the

4983
03:05:52,950 --> 03:05:51,840
claim that idealism precludes this

4984
03:05:54,790 --> 03:05:52,960
understanding of the brain and

4985
03:05:56,710 --> 03:05:54,800
neuroscience and so on but i was saying

4986
03:05:58,550 --> 03:05:56,720
i don't see it as necessarily precluding

4987
03:06:00,389 --> 03:05:58,560
it because you can still study and just

4988
03:06:02,870 --> 03:06:00,399
say why is it that this configuration of

4989
03:06:04,950 --> 03:06:02,880
matter read configuration of mind states

4990
03:06:13,110 --> 03:06:04,960
produce a larger mind state or a certain

4991
03:06:15,990 --> 03:06:14,950
yeah uh i hope you don't think i'm

4992
03:06:17,429 --> 03:06:16,000
fighting with you i'm just telling you

4993
03:06:19,910 --> 03:06:17,439
what occurs no no no no no of course of

4994
03:06:21,590 --> 03:06:19,920
course i know of course in fact

4995
03:06:23,429 --> 03:06:21,600
you're right and what you say um you're

4996
03:06:25,349 --> 03:06:23,439
probably right i

4997
03:06:27,030 --> 03:06:25,359
i maybe have not talked enough about

4998
03:06:28,790 --> 03:06:27,040
that um

4999
03:06:30,309 --> 03:06:28,800
you're you're

5000
03:06:31,830 --> 03:06:30,319
you're

5001
03:06:35,110 --> 03:06:31,840
breathing ideally is together with a

5002
03:06:36,790 --> 03:06:35,120
sort of pumped psychism right so you're

5003
03:06:39,429 --> 03:06:36,800
you're you you

5004
03:06:40,870 --> 03:06:39,439
you're taking this in this direction

5005
03:06:43,110 --> 03:06:40,880
here yeah that's some sort of pump

5006
03:06:50,630 --> 03:06:43,120
psychism stuff of that way

5007
03:06:53,990 --> 03:06:52,710
look

5008
03:06:58,389 --> 03:06:54,000
yeah

5009
03:07:01,030 --> 03:06:58,399
i'm not sure what it means uh

5010
03:07:02,070 --> 03:07:01,040
to be a very weak level

5011
03:07:03,510 --> 03:07:02,080
of

5012
03:07:05,750 --> 03:07:03,520
consciousness i mean i know what it

5013
03:07:08,389 --> 03:07:05,760
means in tony theory okay there's a

5014
03:07:11,830 --> 03:07:08,399
quantity called fee which have

5015
03:07:13,429 --> 03:07:11,840
big values in the brain and slow values

5016
03:07:16,309 --> 03:07:13,439
else

5017
03:07:21,030 --> 03:07:16,319
but that quantity has a

5018
03:07:26,070 --> 03:07:23,030
quantitative value

5019
03:07:29,910 --> 03:07:26,080
determined by configurations of matter

5020
03:07:32,790 --> 03:07:29,920
and the way matter might interact

5021
03:07:37,030 --> 03:07:32,800
so i know that jononi himself is a sort

5022
03:07:39,590 --> 03:07:37,040
of hidden secret idealist or

5023
03:07:42,230 --> 03:07:39,600
a little bit on psychist

5024
03:07:44,790 --> 03:07:42,240
but i'm not sure his theory is because

5025
03:07:46,550 --> 03:07:44,800
if his theory was

5026
03:07:47,349 --> 03:07:46,560
uh so

5027
03:07:51,990 --> 03:07:47,359
uh

5028
03:07:54,090 --> 03:07:52,000
it would not be possible to quantify

5029
03:07:55,269 --> 03:07:54,100
uh

5030
03:07:56,950 --> 03:07:55,279
[Music]

5031
03:07:59,590 --> 03:07:56,960
consciousness

5032
03:08:02,389 --> 03:07:59,600
on the basis of

5033
03:08:04,469 --> 03:08:02,399
a specific configuration of matter and

5034
03:08:06,309 --> 03:08:04,479
possibility of interaction of matter so

5035
03:08:08,150 --> 03:08:06,319
that was here's a ground there and the

5036
03:08:09,110 --> 03:08:08,160
ground is uh

5037
03:08:10,790 --> 03:08:09,120
uh

5038
03:08:12,630 --> 03:08:10,800
you know his physical system interacting

5039
03:08:14,710 --> 03:08:12,640
and affecting one another

5040
03:08:17,190 --> 03:08:14,720
and out of that he says in certain

5041
03:08:18,469 --> 03:08:17,200
configuration this

5042
03:08:20,230 --> 03:08:18,479
behave in a way that we call

5043
03:08:21,990 --> 03:08:20,240
consciousness

5044
03:08:23,750 --> 03:08:22,000
so i think his theory it's far more

5045
03:08:25,110 --> 03:08:23,760
materialistic that even what he would

5046
03:08:27,110 --> 03:08:25,120
like to think

5047
03:08:28,469 --> 03:08:27,120
remember i was saying i'm wondering oh

5048
03:08:30,309 --> 03:08:28,479
there's some way in which that's correct

5049
03:08:32,469 --> 03:08:30,319
some way in which that's correct we were

5050
03:08:34,070 --> 03:08:32,479
talking about this ecumenical quality

5051
03:08:37,670 --> 03:08:34,080
when it comes to what was his name

5052
03:08:39,750 --> 03:08:37,680
taloni right when it comes to tinona

5053
03:08:41,190 --> 03:08:39,760
now i know his theory isn't this

5054
03:08:43,429 --> 03:08:41,200
it's not as simple as let's imagine

5055
03:08:45,670 --> 03:08:43,439
billy balls and they bounce off one

5056
03:08:47,190 --> 03:08:45,680
another in certain

5057
03:08:48,630 --> 03:08:47,200
complex interactions these billiard

5058
03:08:50,309 --> 03:08:48,640
balls model and that creates

5059
03:08:52,150 --> 03:08:50,319
consciousness let's imagine it's but

5060
03:08:52,950 --> 03:08:52,160
let's imagine it's as simple as that

5061
03:08:54,309 --> 03:08:52,960
then

5062
03:08:55,830 --> 03:08:54,319
as you were saying

5063
03:08:57,910 --> 03:08:55,840
what's more fundamental the nodes or the

5064
03:09:00,469 --> 03:08:57,920
vertices sorry

5065
03:09:01,269 --> 03:09:00,479
the edges are the notes

5066
03:09:03,990 --> 03:09:01,279
well

5067
03:09:05,590 --> 03:09:04,000
then i'm wondering hmm imagine tononi's

5068
03:09:06,790 --> 03:09:05,600
was as simple as that that is as simple

5069
03:09:08,950 --> 03:09:06,800
as certain believe balls and they

5070
03:09:11,349 --> 03:09:08,960
interact so it's the relationship that

5071
03:09:13,349 --> 03:09:11,359
produces the consciousness and the balls

5072
03:09:14,630 --> 03:09:13,359
are fundamental but then earlier you

5073
03:09:16,630 --> 03:09:14,640
were saying well you can also view it as

5074
03:09:19,670 --> 03:09:16,640
the relationships are fundamental

5075
03:09:21,110 --> 03:09:19,680
so i'm wondering if in that sense

5076
03:09:22,790 --> 03:09:21,120
see the non-dualists don't like when i

5077
03:09:25,269 --> 03:09:22,800
say this i'm wondering if in some sense

5078
03:09:27,110 --> 03:09:25,279
physicalism and idealism

5079
03:09:29,429 --> 03:09:27,120
can be brought together as twin sides of

5080
03:09:31,990 --> 03:09:29,439
the same coin yes

5081
03:09:33,269 --> 03:09:32,000
yes it's a good point then

5082
03:09:34,469 --> 03:09:33,279
then the question is what we mean by

5083
03:09:37,750 --> 03:09:34,479
mental

5084
03:09:42,229 --> 03:09:37,760
uh

5085
03:09:45,030 --> 03:09:42,239
mind of

5086
03:09:47,590 --> 03:09:45,040
people like humans or maybe

5087
03:09:49,750 --> 03:09:47,600
mammals or maybe

5088
03:09:52,870 --> 03:09:49,760
um

5089
03:09:56,309 --> 03:09:53,750
all

5090
03:09:59,110 --> 03:09:56,319
animals with neural neurons which is

5091
03:10:00,229 --> 03:09:59,120
larger than mammals

5092
03:10:01,990 --> 03:10:00,239
then

5093
03:10:03,590 --> 03:10:02,000
i don't think this

5094
03:10:05,269 --> 03:10:03,600
might be sufficient to describe what

5095
03:10:07,429 --> 03:10:05,279
happened on a galaxy

5096
03:10:09,510 --> 03:10:07,439
if by mental

5097
03:10:11,670 --> 03:10:09,520
we mean something that

5098
03:10:13,830 --> 03:10:11,680
might go wrong everywhere even when

5099
03:10:15,670 --> 03:10:13,840
there are no animals no neurons nothing

5100
03:10:17,110 --> 03:10:15,680
like that

5101
03:10:19,750 --> 03:10:17,120
then

5102
03:10:21,590 --> 03:10:19,760
mental it's an extremely

5103
03:10:23,590 --> 03:10:21,600
vague notion

5104
03:10:26,550 --> 03:10:23,600
which i'm not sure what it means if not

5105
03:10:28,469 --> 03:10:26,560
just a vague analogy

5106
03:10:37,910 --> 03:10:28,479
that

5107
03:10:40,469 --> 03:10:37,920
uh because again um i think the naive

5108
03:10:42,870 --> 03:10:40,479
material is misfront i mean the the the

5109
03:10:46,469 --> 03:10:42,880
uh has been shown wrong by science the

5110
03:10:48,150 --> 03:10:46,479
the um sort of 18 19th century idea

5111
03:10:49,910 --> 03:10:48,160
that there's a perfectly

5112
03:10:51,830 --> 03:10:49,920
full description of the world in terms

5113
03:10:54,150 --> 03:10:51,840
of little stones moving and bouncing one

5114
03:10:56,630 --> 03:10:54,160
another pulled and pulled by forces

5115
03:10:58,229 --> 03:10:56,640
that's not science there's physics has

5116
03:11:00,150 --> 03:10:58,239
moved away from that

5117
03:11:01,670 --> 03:11:00,160
the the because of quantum mechanics

5118
03:11:03,349 --> 03:11:01,680
because of field theory because of

5119
03:11:04,229 --> 03:11:03,359
quantum field theory and so on and so

5120
03:11:06,389 --> 03:11:04,239
forth

5121
03:11:09,190 --> 03:11:06,399
uh so the world is far more complicated

5122
03:11:10,550 --> 03:11:09,200
than that and if if you take if in

5123
03:11:12,630 --> 03:11:10,560
particular you take

5124
03:11:14,229 --> 03:11:12,640
ratio quantum mechanics

5125
03:11:16,309 --> 03:11:14,239
seriously

5126
03:11:18,950 --> 03:11:16,319
you think in terms of relations and how

5127
03:11:22,630 --> 03:11:18,960
things affect one another

5128
03:11:24,870 --> 03:11:22,640
now you want to call this relative uh

5129
03:11:27,510 --> 03:11:24,880
properties mental

5130
03:11:29,830 --> 03:11:27,520
you might but then it's a name

5131
03:11:32,870 --> 03:11:29,840
it's a name which is uh

5132
03:11:33,990 --> 03:11:32,880
i don't see what happened what adds

5133
03:11:35,510 --> 03:11:34,000
um

5134
03:11:36,389 --> 03:11:35,520
to the

5135
03:11:38,550 --> 03:11:36,399
uh

5136
03:11:42,070 --> 03:11:38,560
to our understanding

5137
03:11:46,229 --> 03:11:44,070
and and what

5138
03:11:48,229 --> 03:11:46,239
interpreting this

5139
03:11:49,990 --> 03:11:48,239
so that was i think i'm an ammonist

5140
03:11:52,630 --> 03:11:50,000
modest in the sense that i don't think

5141
03:11:54,389 --> 03:11:52,640
they're two different kind of phenomena

5142
03:11:56,229 --> 03:11:54,399
i'm a monies like in the sense of

5143
03:11:57,750 --> 03:11:56,239
bertrand russell they're mental

5144
03:11:59,990 --> 03:11:57,760
phenomena and there are physical

5145
03:12:01,910 --> 03:12:00,000
phenomena mental phenomena you say oh i

5146
03:12:04,150 --> 03:12:01,920
see white and there's a physical

5147
03:12:06,950 --> 03:12:04,160
phenomena that there's a thing moving

5148
03:12:10,229 --> 03:12:06,960
down there i think this whole phenomena

5149
03:12:12,630 --> 03:12:10,239
they all belong to the same beat class

5150
03:12:14,150 --> 03:12:12,640
that should be explained by we we

5151
03:12:15,590 --> 03:12:14,160
understand more and more about all of

5152
03:12:16,790 --> 03:12:15,600
them but they're not two different

5153
03:12:19,269 --> 03:12:16,800
worlds

5154
03:12:21,670 --> 03:12:19,279
so if you're telling me look at some

5155
03:12:23,750 --> 03:12:21,680
elementary level of this distinct

5156
03:12:25,349 --> 03:12:23,760
very very very general way of just

5157
03:12:27,269 --> 03:12:25,359
understanding about the world we have

5158
03:12:29,269 --> 03:12:27,279
the distinction between the two

5159
03:12:30,150 --> 03:12:29,279
evaporates i'm happy

5160
03:12:33,110 --> 03:12:30,160
yeah

5161
03:12:35,990 --> 03:12:33,120
but is that idealism at this point

5162
03:12:38,070 --> 03:12:36,000
idealism is a strong way of reducing one

5163
03:12:40,550 --> 03:12:38,080
to the other

5164
03:12:42,550 --> 03:12:40,560
uh like you know

5165
03:12:44,870 --> 03:12:42,560
old 19th century materialism is a strong

5166
03:12:46,630 --> 03:12:44,880
way of reducing one to the other

5167
03:12:47,429 --> 03:12:46,640
um

5168
03:12:48,870 --> 03:12:47,439
yeah

5169
03:12:50,790 --> 03:12:48,880
have you thought much about the heart

5170
03:12:51,910 --> 03:12:50,800
problem of consciousness

5171
03:12:54,070 --> 03:12:51,920
yeah

5172
03:12:56,550 --> 03:12:54,080
so what do you believe exist

5173
03:12:58,469 --> 03:12:56,560
all right let's hear it's a confusion

5174
03:13:00,550 --> 03:12:58,479
i think it's a confusion my my take on

5175
03:13:03,670 --> 03:13:00,560
the half problem of consciousness this

5176
03:13:06,389 --> 03:13:03,680
is david chalmer uh

5177
03:13:08,469 --> 03:13:06,399
is that if you reach almost the point is

5178
03:13:09,990 --> 03:13:08,479
about we believe that

5179
03:13:12,870 --> 03:13:10,000
there is a hard problem of consciousness

5180
03:13:14,389 --> 03:13:12,880
because it is conceivable for us say to

5181
03:13:15,670 --> 03:13:14,399
think there is a zombie

5182
03:13:18,389 --> 03:13:15,680
right so it seems there is the same

5183
03:13:19,830 --> 03:13:18,399
physical configuration but nobody inside

5184
03:13:21,750 --> 03:13:19,840
and that shows

5185
03:13:24,469 --> 03:13:21,760
that even if we understand the physics

5186
03:13:26,950 --> 03:13:24,479
completely there is something missing

5187
03:13:29,750 --> 03:13:26,960
so this is based on what is conceivable

5188
03:13:32,309 --> 03:13:29,760
to us so the problem of

5189
03:13:35,349 --> 03:13:32,319
the heart from your consciousness

5190
03:13:37,190 --> 03:13:35,359
it's a problem that comes from taking

5191
03:13:39,910 --> 03:13:37,200
the strong

5192
03:13:42,870 --> 03:13:39,920
what we find conceivable not conceivable

5193
03:13:46,150 --> 03:13:42,880
so the kind of uh

5194
03:13:48,309 --> 03:13:46,160
intuition where the world view right now

5195
03:13:50,070 --> 03:13:48,319
but the kind of intuition that we have

5196
03:13:52,309 --> 03:13:50,080
about the world view right now is

5197
03:13:56,229 --> 03:13:52,319
exactly the kind of thing that science

5198
03:13:57,670 --> 03:13:56,239
shows wrong every step of the way

5199
03:13:58,389 --> 03:13:57,680
so

5200
03:14:02,309 --> 03:13:58,399
the

5201
03:14:03,910 --> 03:14:02,319
that we have some wrong intuition

5202
03:14:06,150 --> 03:14:03,920
because nature

5203
03:14:07,910 --> 03:14:06,160
has produced us

5204
03:14:10,790 --> 03:14:07,920
by solving the easy problem of caution

5205
03:14:12,389 --> 03:14:10,800
is not the half of consciousness so um

5206
03:14:14,309 --> 03:14:12,399
the easy problem of consciousness of

5207
03:14:16,070 --> 03:14:14,319
course is very hard which is how the

5208
03:14:18,309 --> 03:14:16,080
brain works

5209
03:14:20,950 --> 03:14:18,319
but i am deeply convinced that if you

5210
03:14:22,070 --> 03:14:20,960
take a copy of me

5211
03:14:23,110 --> 03:14:22,080
okay

5212
03:14:25,990 --> 03:14:23,120
equal

5213
03:14:26,870 --> 03:14:26,000
same nose same hair

5214
03:14:36,309 --> 03:14:26,880
same

5215
03:14:37,590 --> 03:14:36,319
conscious it's just no way for me to

5216
03:14:39,429 --> 03:14:37,600
conceive

5217
03:14:41,190 --> 03:14:39,439
that i could be conscious and the copy

5218
03:14:43,349 --> 03:14:41,200
of me could be non-conscious so

5219
03:14:44,950 --> 03:14:43,359
therefore if we understand how the thing

5220
03:14:48,469 --> 03:14:44,960
works we understand what it means what

5221
03:14:49,990 --> 03:14:48,479
i'm saying when i'm saying i'm conscious

5222
03:14:51,269 --> 03:14:50,000
i don't believe there's a

5223
03:14:53,349 --> 03:14:51,279
hard problem of consciousness i think

5224
03:14:54,950 --> 03:14:53,359
there's a very hard easy problem of

5225
03:14:57,670 --> 03:14:54,960
consciousness namely

5226
03:14:58,550 --> 03:14:57,680
com understanding this uh this uh

5227
03:15:01,830 --> 03:14:58,560
you see

5228
03:15:03,750 --> 03:15:01,840
we don't understand

5229
03:15:06,550 --> 03:15:03,760
well if you if you if you talk to people

5230
03:15:08,550 --> 03:15:06,560
doing climate science or meteorological

5231
03:15:11,269 --> 03:15:08,560
science not climate science

5232
03:15:12,389 --> 03:15:11,279
a thunderstorm is not yet understood

5233
03:15:13,670 --> 03:15:12,399
it's very complicated phenomena to

5234
03:15:15,590 --> 03:15:13,680
understand because there's electric

5235
03:15:18,630 --> 03:15:15,600
things magnetic thing chemical thing

5236
03:15:20,630 --> 03:15:18,640
it's all sort of rapid and

5237
03:15:22,790 --> 03:15:20,640
hydrodynamics is horrendously

5238
03:15:26,389 --> 03:15:22,800
complicated so what exactly happened

5239
03:15:28,229 --> 03:15:26,399
with thunderstorm is not understood okay

5240
03:15:30,950 --> 03:15:28,239
does this mean that it's a hard problem

5241
03:15:33,750 --> 03:15:30,960
of thunderstorms no it means that this

5242
03:15:35,830 --> 03:15:33,760
complicated thing okay does it mean that

5243
03:15:37,990 --> 03:15:35,840
it's jupiter

5244
03:15:40,710 --> 03:15:38,000
you know the the the flashes the the

5245
03:15:42,870 --> 03:15:40,720
lightnings are the rage of jupiter i

5246
03:15:44,630 --> 03:15:42,880
mean no you don't think there's jupiter

5247
03:15:45,990 --> 03:15:44,640
there i think they just don't understand

5248
03:15:47,190 --> 03:15:46,000
what's going on

5249
03:15:49,910 --> 03:15:47,200
so i see

5250
03:15:52,070 --> 03:15:49,920
i don't see the difference between

5251
03:15:53,990 --> 03:15:52,080
thunderstorms and

5252
03:15:55,510 --> 03:15:54,000
uh

5253
03:15:58,710 --> 03:15:55,520
the human mind

5254
03:16:01,910 --> 03:16:00,070
let me see if i understand this

5255
03:16:03,830 --> 03:16:01,920
correctly if we were to imagine

5256
03:16:05,429 --> 03:16:03,840
duplicating you

5257
03:16:06,630 --> 03:16:05,439
then

5258
03:16:09,990 --> 03:16:06,640
you don't know

5259
03:16:10,950 --> 03:16:10,000
or it's unclear how that duplicate

5260
03:16:15,510 --> 03:16:10,960
would be

5261
03:16:18,790 --> 03:16:17,670
uh the reason i'm saying is that because

5262
03:16:21,590 --> 03:16:18,800
uh

5263
03:16:23,670 --> 03:16:21,600
chalmer one of the strong arguments

5264
03:16:25,750 --> 03:16:23,680
for the existence of the

5265
03:16:27,030 --> 03:16:25,760
hard form of consciousness

5266
03:16:29,349 --> 03:16:27,040
in his book

5267
03:16:31,670 --> 03:16:29,359
is to say well imagine you have a zombie

5268
03:16:32,550 --> 03:16:31,680
a zombie is somebody that believes like

5269
03:16:44,710 --> 03:16:32,560
me

5270
03:16:46,870 --> 03:16:44,720
including down to the atomic level

5271
03:16:49,110 --> 03:16:46,880
but there is no consciousness so he says

5272
03:16:51,030 --> 03:16:49,120
imagine this thing okay

5273
03:16:52,870 --> 03:16:51,040
and look if you can imagine that it

5274
03:16:55,030 --> 03:16:52,880
means you can imagine that consciousness

5275
03:16:57,190 --> 03:16:55,040
is separated from the physical something

5276
03:16:59,349 --> 03:16:57,200
else something above the physical

5277
03:17:01,190 --> 03:16:59,359
because you can have the same physical

5278
03:17:02,389 --> 03:17:01,200
with or without consciousness so this

5279
03:17:04,950 --> 03:17:02,399
proves it

5280
03:17:06,790 --> 03:17:04,960
so he proves that constantly something

5281
03:17:08,309 --> 03:17:06,800
separate from the physical

5282
03:17:10,630 --> 03:17:08,319
on the basis

5283
03:17:13,269 --> 03:17:10,640
of this zombie argument think that there

5284
03:17:15,590 --> 03:17:13,279
is a copy of you um

5285
03:17:17,590 --> 03:17:15,600
which is uh there's nobody inside

5286
03:17:19,990 --> 03:17:17,600
there's no self person

5287
03:17:22,150 --> 03:17:20,000
but they think there was

5288
03:17:23,349 --> 03:17:22,160
exactly me i wouldn't understand what it

5289
03:17:26,070 --> 03:17:23,359
means there's nobody inside they could

5290
03:17:28,150 --> 03:17:26,080
talk to him hey carlo how how do you

5291
03:17:29,830 --> 03:17:28,160
feel i mean i'm the right one or you're

5292
03:17:31,910 --> 03:17:29,840
the right one he could fight about that

5293
03:17:33,590 --> 03:17:31,920
and you know make jokes about that

5294
03:17:35,510 --> 03:17:33,600
of course it wouldn't make any sense to

5295
03:17:36,469 --> 03:17:35,520
know which ones the right and which ones

5296
03:17:37,910 --> 03:17:36,479
are false

5297
03:17:40,630 --> 03:17:37,920
um

5298
03:17:42,070 --> 03:17:40,640
so he would be conscious under all

5299
03:17:43,349 --> 03:17:42,080
possible

5300
03:17:45,990 --> 03:17:43,359
way that i couldn't understand

5301
03:17:48,150 --> 03:17:46,000
consciousness so his proof is based on

5302
03:17:50,309 --> 03:17:48,160
an intuition that i don't have

5303
03:17:53,030 --> 03:17:50,319
the existence of zombies have you ever

5304
03:17:55,510 --> 03:17:53,040
played virtual reality

5305
03:17:57,990 --> 03:17:55,520
like put on a vr headset yeah yeah a bit

5306
03:17:59,590 --> 03:17:58,000
a little bit yeah okay the reason why is

5307
03:18:01,510 --> 03:17:59,600
i don't find it so inconceivable i can

5308
03:18:03,429 --> 03:18:01,520
imagine putting on a vr headset and

5309
03:18:05,830 --> 03:18:03,439
seeing my wife or seeing you or even

5310
03:18:07,670 --> 03:18:05,840
myself and even being able to look in

5311
03:18:10,150 --> 03:18:07,680
someone's brain and it's generated with

5312
03:18:13,830 --> 03:18:10,160
a computer of course i would have no id

5313
03:18:17,030 --> 03:18:15,510
what's the word procedurally generate so

5314
03:18:18,870 --> 03:18:17,040
we can procedurally generate the brain

5315
03:18:20,229 --> 03:18:18,880
as i zoom in and zoom out i can't even

5316
03:18:21,590 --> 03:18:20,239
do that physically like i can't zoom

5317
03:18:23,750 --> 03:18:21,600
into your brain physically but

5318
03:18:26,870 --> 03:18:23,760
regardless i don't see it as totally

5319
03:18:29,590 --> 03:18:26,880
inconceivable that there can be this

5320
03:18:31,590 --> 03:18:29,600
simulated copy that it itself we would

5321
03:18:34,309 --> 03:18:31,600
say is not conscious and it can talk i

5322
03:18:36,070 --> 03:18:34,319
can touch it and see the blood fall out

5323
03:18:37,750 --> 03:18:36,080
from wherever i'm touching with my

5324
03:18:39,990 --> 03:18:37,760
scissors or whatever maybe

5325
03:18:43,190 --> 03:18:40,000
why is it inconceivable to consider a

5326
03:18:46,710 --> 03:18:45,510
even in vr

5327
03:18:49,670 --> 03:18:46,720
well

5328
03:18:52,469 --> 03:18:49,680
let's let's push it if in vr

5329
03:18:54,630 --> 03:18:52,479
you could uh

5330
03:18:56,389 --> 03:18:54,640
create a person

5331
03:18:58,389 --> 03:18:56,399
and this person doesn't just look like a

5332
03:19:00,710 --> 03:18:58,399
person and you touch him and and blood

5333
03:19:04,710 --> 03:19:00,720
comes out but also answer your questions

5334
03:19:08,870 --> 03:19:04,720
and also have a memory and also have a

5335
03:19:10,790 --> 03:19:08,880
a way of reflecting and everything and

5336
03:19:12,550 --> 03:19:10,800
and blah blah blah blah blah blah and

5337
03:19:13,510 --> 03:19:12,560
all the memories and all the complexity

5338
03:19:16,630 --> 03:19:13,520
of me

5339
03:19:19,110 --> 03:19:16,640
i think that whatever computer

5340
03:19:21,830 --> 03:19:19,120
is implementing all that

5341
03:19:24,389 --> 03:19:21,840
you know it has memory it talks about i

5342
03:19:25,750 --> 03:19:24,399
i remember that i'm this i'm that i see

5343
03:19:27,269 --> 03:19:25,760
you

5344
03:19:29,030 --> 03:19:27,279
that's his

5345
03:19:29,990 --> 03:19:29,040
a real person how about let's remove the

5346
03:19:31,269 --> 03:19:30,000
memory and the reflective

5347
03:19:32,870 --> 03:19:31,279
characteristics because there's some

5348
03:19:35,269 --> 03:19:32,880
people who are have are mentally

5349
03:19:37,429 --> 03:19:35,279
challenged by birth they cannot develop

5350
03:19:38,790 --> 03:19:37,439
a reflective property

5351
03:19:40,550 --> 03:19:38,800
even babies

5352
03:19:46,309 --> 03:19:40,560
so let's imagine that we would say a

5353
03:19:49,590 --> 03:19:47,990
a baby has no memories let's imagine

5354
03:19:57,269 --> 03:19:49,600
this this baby has no memory so let's

5355
03:19:57,279 --> 03:20:01,110
uh

5356
03:20:03,830 --> 03:20:02,150
i'm attacking i'm just telling you what

5357
03:20:05,429 --> 03:20:03,840
occurs to me i'm sorry no no no of

5358
03:20:07,190 --> 03:20:05,439
course i like it

5359
03:20:07,570 --> 03:20:07,200
i like this

5360
03:20:09,349 --> 03:20:07,580
um

5361
03:20:10,710 --> 03:20:09,359
[Music]

5362
03:20:12,710 --> 03:20:10,720
okay so

5363
03:20:15,830 --> 03:20:12,720
feeling

5364
03:20:17,990 --> 03:20:15,840
it's uh um philosophical babies instead

5365
03:20:19,590 --> 03:20:18,000
of philosophical zombies just the zombie

5366
03:20:21,429 --> 03:20:19,600
babies

5367
03:20:24,469 --> 03:20:21,439
so you mentioned memory and reflective

5368
03:20:27,110 --> 03:20:24,479
capabilities i'm just saying remove that

5369
03:20:28,870 --> 03:20:27,120
right so um

5370
03:20:29,670 --> 03:20:28,880
i think that uh

5371
03:20:32,550 --> 03:20:29,680
uh

5372
03:20:33,670 --> 03:20:32,560
let's separate the question in into if

5373
03:20:37,349 --> 03:20:33,680
you

5374
03:20:39,590 --> 03:20:37,359
uh so let's forget virtual reality for a

5375
03:20:41,750 --> 03:20:39,600
moment if you have a

5376
03:20:44,870 --> 03:20:41,760
um

5377
03:20:49,590 --> 03:20:48,070
an artificial baby

5378
03:20:53,830 --> 03:20:49,600
um

5379
03:20:55,590 --> 03:20:53,840
that behaves like a baby and uh and uh

5380
03:20:58,630 --> 03:20:55,600
in all the complexity of a baby i think

5381
03:21:00,229 --> 03:20:58,640
it's soft it suffers it would suffer

5382
03:21:02,309 --> 03:21:00,239
i would not hurt

5383
03:21:06,950 --> 03:21:02,319
it

5384
03:21:10,229 --> 03:21:06,960
of course

5385
03:21:12,229 --> 03:21:10,239
if you give me a little robot

5386
03:21:13,349 --> 03:21:12,239
which when are you kicking he says wow

5387
03:21:15,269 --> 03:21:13,359
yeah okay

5388
03:21:17,429 --> 03:21:15,279
i will kick it because i know that

5389
03:21:19,670 --> 03:21:17,439
there's a huge difference between that

5390
03:21:21,429 --> 03:21:19,680
robot and a baby but is the actual

5391
03:21:22,710 --> 03:21:21,439
difference

5392
03:21:24,870 --> 03:21:22,720
that

5393
03:21:25,830 --> 03:21:24,880
uh establish

5394
03:21:29,349 --> 03:21:25,840
my

5395
03:21:30,790 --> 03:21:29,359
that there is suffering always not afro

5396
03:21:32,950 --> 03:21:30,800
suffering

5397
03:21:34,710 --> 03:21:32,960
if if it would uh

5398
03:21:36,150 --> 03:21:34,720
because i think that suffering is

5399
03:21:37,670 --> 03:21:36,160
nothing else

5400
03:21:39,990 --> 03:21:37,680
then just you know

5401
03:21:42,389 --> 03:21:40,000
the the baby having a ball a body a

5402
03:21:46,710 --> 03:21:42,399
brain and and and all these things and

5403
03:21:48,950 --> 03:21:47,750
uh

5404
03:21:53,830 --> 03:21:48,960
so

5405
03:21:55,670 --> 03:21:53,840
this is a full story or a real story but

5406
03:21:57,990 --> 03:21:55,680
he he believed that only humans have

5407
03:21:59,750 --> 03:21:58,000
consciousness he would kick his dog

5408
03:22:02,710 --> 03:21:59,760
because he thought that uh

5409
03:22:04,229 --> 03:22:02,720
i don't know if he's true uh because i i

5410
03:22:06,630 --> 03:22:04,239
read that he was very attached to his

5411
03:22:09,110 --> 03:22:06,640
dog so just the things that things

5412
03:22:10,309 --> 03:22:09,120
wouldn't wouldn't go together well

5413
03:22:12,469 --> 03:22:10,319
um

5414
03:22:14,630 --> 03:22:12,479
but if he if it is true i think it was a

5415
03:22:19,590 --> 03:22:14,640
mistake i don't think there is any

5416
03:22:23,750 --> 03:22:22,550
real as a mental state than a human

5417
03:22:25,910 --> 03:22:23,760
suffering

5418
03:22:26,950 --> 03:22:25,920
i mean we we might prefer killing a dog

5419
03:22:29,110 --> 03:22:26,960
than killing a man but that's a

5420
03:22:31,590 --> 03:22:29,120
different story

5421
03:22:32,950 --> 03:22:31,600
now the virtual reality simulation of

5422
03:22:36,070 --> 03:22:32,960
pain

5423
03:22:38,550 --> 03:22:36,080
you're right that's more tricky

5424
03:22:45,110 --> 03:22:40,630
because

5425
03:22:49,349 --> 03:22:46,710
you have a software

5426
03:22:50,469 --> 03:22:49,359
that simulate the entire body of the as

5427
03:22:52,309 --> 03:22:50,479
a body

5428
03:22:54,150 --> 03:22:52,319
uh

5429
03:22:55,190 --> 03:22:54,160
being hurt and suffering that i don't

5430
03:22:57,349 --> 03:22:55,200
know

5431
03:22:59,990 --> 03:22:57,359
that's just bustling okay now rapid fire

5432
03:23:02,550 --> 03:23:00,000
again just a few more so this nickel

5433
03:23:04,150 --> 03:23:02,560
ns and he wrote the word he or she wrote

5434
03:23:06,309 --> 03:23:04,160
the word phi econ i don't know if that

5435
03:23:07,429 --> 03:23:06,319
means physics economist

5436
03:23:09,110 --> 03:23:07,439
regardless

5437
03:23:11,110 --> 03:23:09,120
here she said i want to thank carlo

5438
03:23:13,590 --> 03:23:11,120
robelli a lot when i was doing my

5439
03:23:15,910 --> 03:23:13,600
masters 14 years ago i ended up with a

5440
03:23:17,269 --> 03:23:15,920
similar idea as relational quantum

5441
03:23:19,269 --> 03:23:17,279
mechanics but i didn't have the

5442
03:23:21,269 --> 03:23:19,279
mathematical ability to pursue it and

5443
03:23:23,750 --> 03:23:21,279
i've been following him since question

5444
03:23:26,070 --> 03:23:23,760
one what is his view regarding the paper

5445
03:23:30,790 --> 03:23:26,080
quantum principle of relativity by

5446
03:23:33,030 --> 03:23:30,800
andres dragon and artur eckert

5447
03:23:34,950 --> 03:23:33,040
are you aware of that paper

5448
03:23:37,190 --> 03:23:34,960
quantum principle well thank you thank

5449
03:23:39,750 --> 03:23:37,200
you for watching she says no i'm sorry

5450
03:23:41,830 --> 03:23:39,760
i'm not aware of this paper so um

5451
03:23:44,070 --> 03:23:41,840
if if he or she thinks it's interesting

5452
03:23:46,150 --> 03:23:44,080
send me an email and i'm gonna read it i

5453
03:23:47,750 --> 03:23:46,160
will send it to you his question or her

5454
03:23:53,830 --> 03:23:47,760
question number two is what is his view

5455
03:24:00,389 --> 03:23:54,710
uh

5456
03:24:01,590 --> 03:24:00,399
this is brian swingle i don't know i

5457
03:24:03,910 --> 03:24:01,600
don't know if that's a physicist i don't

5458
03:24:06,469 --> 03:24:03,920
know who that is i'm sorry

5459
03:24:09,110 --> 03:24:06,479
i'm sorry i don't know same okay good

5460
03:24:11,510 --> 03:24:09,120
sir knight i love carlo a great man to

5461
03:24:13,910 --> 03:24:11,520
explain complex ideas simply to a person

5462
03:24:15,590 --> 03:24:13,920
like myself he said before that he took

5463
03:24:16,950 --> 03:24:15,600
psychedelics when he was young i think

5464
03:24:19,269 --> 03:24:16,960
it was lsd

5465
03:24:21,590 --> 03:24:19,279
and it was a satori moment which helped

5466
03:24:23,910 --> 03:24:21,600
him think about time in physics in novel

5467
03:24:26,150 --> 03:24:23,920
ways has he done psychedelics since and

5468
03:24:30,389 --> 03:24:26,160
if so has it given him any new insights

5469
03:24:34,229 --> 03:24:32,630
um at this psychedelic said in my youth

5470
03:24:36,870 --> 03:24:34,239
a few times

5471
03:24:37,670 --> 03:24:36,880
ten times maybe uh no more

5472
03:24:39,590 --> 03:24:37,680
uh

5473
03:24:43,590 --> 03:24:39,600
15 maybe um

5474
03:24:50,309 --> 03:24:46,790
done it since uh and i don't know maybe

5475
03:24:51,269 --> 03:24:50,319
i i will in the future um nowadays

5476
03:24:52,469 --> 03:24:51,279
things

5477
03:24:53,990 --> 03:24:52,479
so what the whole thing about

5478
03:24:55,429 --> 03:24:54,000
psychedelics is changing it's changing

5479
03:24:56,870 --> 03:24:55,439
very rapidly

5480
03:25:00,070 --> 03:24:56,880
so

5481
03:25:01,429 --> 03:25:00,080
things might become simpler uh now

5482
03:25:04,229 --> 03:25:01,439
um

5483
03:25:05,269 --> 03:25:04,239
it was important for me it was a very

5484
03:25:06,790 --> 03:25:05,279
strong

5485
03:25:13,750 --> 03:25:06,800
experience like

5486
03:25:13,760 --> 03:25:20,070
do you recall your dosage

5487
03:25:24,229 --> 03:25:21,190
no

5488
03:25:25,510 --> 03:25:24,239
um but comparing to descriptions uh

5489
03:25:28,070 --> 03:25:25,520
which you find in literature was

5490
03:25:30,150 --> 03:25:28,080
certainly quite high oh yeah

5491
03:25:31,750 --> 03:25:30,160
wow yeah

5492
03:25:33,510 --> 03:25:31,760
yeah uh

5493
03:25:35,110 --> 03:25:33,520
definitely high um

5494
03:25:38,309 --> 03:25:35,120
i mean

5495
03:25:40,389 --> 03:25:38,319
compared to the strongest uh

5496
03:25:41,830 --> 03:25:40,399
accounts of of of

5497
03:25:43,590 --> 03:25:41,840
similar experience that you find

5498
03:25:46,150 --> 03:25:43,600
nowadays easily

5499
03:25:48,389 --> 03:25:46,160
in in all sorts of literature

5500
03:25:49,670 --> 03:25:48,399
um

5501
03:25:51,750 --> 03:25:49,680
you know

5502
03:25:54,710 --> 03:25:51,760
steve jobs the the head

5503
03:25:57,349 --> 03:25:54,720
of apple said that to take lsd this

5504
03:25:59,830 --> 03:25:57,359
youth was one of the two most important

5505
03:26:01,590 --> 03:25:59,840
strong experiences of his life i i think

5506
03:26:03,110 --> 03:26:01,600
i could subscribe that it was very

5507
03:26:06,469 --> 03:26:03,120
strong

5508
03:26:08,710 --> 03:26:06,479
um it definitely did not i did not

5509
03:26:09,830 --> 03:26:08,720
get direct physical ideas by taking nst

5510
03:26:11,670 --> 03:26:09,840
so i don't

5511
03:26:13,349 --> 03:26:11,680
suggest you know take lsd so you write

5512
03:26:14,469 --> 03:26:13,359
good paper in physics that's not the way

5513
03:26:17,190 --> 03:26:14,479
it works

5514
03:26:19,670 --> 03:26:17,200
um i was young and it was many many

5515
03:26:22,229 --> 03:26:19,680
years from there to the actual physics

5516
03:26:25,110 --> 03:26:22,239
uh i did however

5517
03:26:27,910 --> 03:26:25,120
i believe it's true that

5518
03:26:31,030 --> 03:26:27,920
it did affect

5519
03:26:35,550 --> 03:26:31,040
my way of thinking about reality

5520
03:26:38,630 --> 03:26:35,560
especially um in a sort of uh

5521
03:26:41,269 --> 03:26:38,640
liberatory sense i mean thought about i

5522
03:26:43,830 --> 03:26:41,279
came out i was young again i was

5523
03:26:45,750 --> 03:26:43,840
i guess the first time i was 16.

5524
03:26:47,830 --> 03:26:45,760
i came out with from that experience

5525
03:26:50,150 --> 03:26:47,840
saying thinking wait a minute what we

5526
03:26:52,710 --> 03:26:50,160
usually think about space and time and

5527
03:26:54,550 --> 03:26:52,720
matter and energy and mind and me and

5528
03:26:55,510 --> 03:26:54,560
the world and that

5529
03:26:57,349 --> 03:26:55,520
uh

5530
03:26:59,190 --> 03:26:57,359
that's just one way of thinking about

5531
03:27:01,110 --> 03:26:59,200
things maybe there are all sorts of

5532
03:27:03,670 --> 03:27:01,120
other ways of thinking about that and my

5533
03:27:05,830 --> 03:27:03,680
brain is can can view things

5534
03:27:08,150 --> 03:27:05,840
very very differently for a while so it

5535
03:27:09,110 --> 03:27:08,160
might be possible to think differently

5536
03:27:11,349 --> 03:27:09,120
so

5537
03:27:14,870 --> 03:27:11,359
i came out from that experience maybe it

5538
03:27:16,790 --> 03:27:14,880
was also the culture at the time

5539
03:27:19,830 --> 03:27:16,800
with an extremely

5540
03:27:21,269 --> 03:27:19,840
large a purely flexibility

5541
03:27:23,429 --> 03:27:21,279
about

5542
03:27:24,870 --> 03:27:23,439
possibilities right right i can imagine

5543
03:27:26,550 --> 03:27:24,880
that

5544
03:27:29,349 --> 03:27:26,560
in terms of you know political ideas

5545
03:27:33,429 --> 03:27:29,359
moral ideas social ideas

5546
03:27:36,389 --> 03:27:33,439
but also physical idea i mean i

5547
03:27:38,630 --> 03:27:36,399
i had a distinctive sense that this

5548
03:27:40,630 --> 03:27:38,640
organization in space and in time that

5549
03:27:42,389 --> 03:27:40,640
we

5550
03:27:44,469 --> 03:27:42,399
usually perceive about the world could

5551
03:27:46,710 --> 03:27:44,479
just change with a little chemical

5552
03:27:48,790 --> 03:27:46,720
so we are clinical so

5553
03:27:50,229 --> 03:27:48,800
you know why should one be better than

5554
03:27:51,269 --> 03:27:50,239
the other

5555
03:27:52,950 --> 03:27:51,279
um

5556
03:27:54,630 --> 03:27:52,960
and this stayed with me

5557
03:27:55,510 --> 03:27:54,640
and i think that one

5558
03:27:57,910 --> 03:27:55,520
first

5559
03:28:00,950 --> 03:27:57,920
it gave me curiosity

5560
03:28:02,870 --> 03:28:00,960
because when i later on 10 years later

5561
03:28:04,309 --> 03:28:02,880
i studied physics

5562
03:28:06,550 --> 03:28:04,319
and read that you know einstein

5563
03:28:08,070 --> 03:28:06,560
discovered that simultaneity is not

5564
03:28:10,950 --> 03:28:08,080
well defined

5565
03:28:12,710 --> 03:28:10,960
i said well about it this i you know i

5566
03:28:14,150 --> 03:28:12,720
do i knew that things were more

5567
03:28:15,349 --> 03:28:14,160
complicated than what they looked at the

5568
03:28:17,510 --> 03:28:15,359
first side

5569
03:28:20,309 --> 03:28:17,520
um and then when i studied generativity

5570
03:28:22,389 --> 03:28:20,319
quantum mechanics i was ready to accept

5571
03:28:24,550 --> 03:28:22,399
very easily the idea

5572
03:28:26,150 --> 03:28:24,560
uh that the world could perhaps be

5573
03:28:28,389 --> 03:28:26,160
profoundly different than i would

5574
03:28:29,830 --> 03:28:28,399
imagine of it didn't scare me the idea

5575
03:28:32,309 --> 03:28:29,840
because somehow it's an idea that had

5576
03:28:35,190 --> 03:28:32,319
confronted so in that sense i think it

5577
03:28:37,110 --> 03:28:35,200
was very useful um for this no more than

5578
03:28:39,269 --> 03:28:37,120
that

5579
03:28:40,389 --> 03:28:39,279
did you get to a state of a temporality

5580
03:28:43,269 --> 03:28:40,399
where you didn't feel like there was

5581
03:28:46,150 --> 03:28:43,279
time passing yeah or eternity even like

5582
03:28:46,950 --> 03:28:46,160
infinite time passing yeah that's one of

5583
03:28:47,670 --> 03:28:46,960
the

5584
03:28:50,150 --> 03:28:47,680
uh

5585
03:28:51,030 --> 03:28:50,160
i say more common

5586
03:28:52,870 --> 03:28:51,040
um

5587
03:28:56,790 --> 03:28:52,880
things that people say

5588
03:28:58,550 --> 03:28:56,800
namely that uh time it's uh uh the sense

5589
03:28:59,750 --> 03:28:58,560
of time is completely

5590
03:29:02,229 --> 03:28:59,760
uh

5591
03:29:04,710 --> 03:29:02,239
destroyed in in many ways i mean i would

5592
03:29:06,469 --> 03:29:04,720
say the simplest way

5593
03:29:08,630 --> 03:29:06,479
which i remember very well away from

5594
03:29:11,510 --> 03:29:08,640
very beginning is just you know having

5595
03:29:13,110 --> 03:29:11,520
the sense of watching the looking at the

5596
03:29:14,469 --> 03:29:13,120
at the watch

5597
03:29:16,630 --> 03:29:14,479
and then you know

5598
03:29:19,190 --> 03:29:16,640
hours and hours later watching it again

5599
03:29:20,950 --> 03:29:19,200
and uh realizing that one minute had

5600
03:29:22,710 --> 03:29:20,960
passed so wait a minute all this

5601
03:29:23,990 --> 03:29:22,720
happened in one minute i mean my god

5602
03:29:25,110 --> 03:29:24,000
which is one of the things people get

5603
03:29:27,030 --> 03:29:25,120
scared

5604
03:29:28,790 --> 03:29:27,040
right so one one of the things i mean

5605
03:29:29,990 --> 03:29:28,800
the only the problem with lsd if you get

5606
03:29:31,349 --> 03:29:30,000
scared

5607
03:29:33,830 --> 03:29:31,359
and you

5608
03:29:35,269 --> 03:29:33,840
you get terrorized and it's extremely

5609
03:29:37,670 --> 03:29:35,279
psychologically dangerous yeah it can be

5610
03:29:38,790 --> 03:29:37,680
very bad it doesn't happen often but

5611
03:29:40,710 --> 03:29:38,800
it's uh

5612
03:29:42,309 --> 03:29:40,720
i think it's the only real problem in

5613
03:29:44,550 --> 03:29:42,319
these things the only real danger of

5614
03:29:46,710 --> 03:29:44,560
this is having a

5615
03:29:48,229 --> 03:29:46,720
couple a few very bad hours which may

5616
03:29:49,429 --> 03:29:48,239
look very wrong and then one of the

5617
03:29:51,750 --> 03:29:49,439
reasons you get scared is when you

5618
03:29:53,429 --> 03:29:51,760
realize that you know you feel the time

5619
03:29:55,590 --> 03:29:53,439
is passing but it's not passing outside

5620
03:29:57,110 --> 03:29:55,600
you you feel trapped

5621
03:29:59,110 --> 03:29:57,120
oh my god i'm here and then come out of

5622
03:30:01,429 --> 03:29:59,120
you okay it's because here for me time

5623
03:30:03,590 --> 03:30:01,439
is it's it's passing and outside is not

5624
03:30:05,590 --> 03:30:03,600
passing so that's one of the security

5625
03:30:07,429 --> 03:30:05,600
but that's

5626
03:30:09,110 --> 03:30:07,439
extraordinary strong distortion of the

5627
03:30:11,750 --> 03:30:09,120
sense of how much time is fast it's just

5628
03:30:13,910 --> 03:30:11,760
one aspect of it because uh

5629
03:30:17,110 --> 03:30:13,920
i think the sense that people talk about

5630
03:30:19,510 --> 03:30:17,120
that it's a sense of completely destroy

5631
03:30:20,870 --> 03:30:19,520
what it means by temporal organization

5632
03:30:23,510 --> 03:30:20,880
of the world

5633
03:30:25,030 --> 03:30:23,520
and the other common thing is this

5634
03:30:27,910 --> 03:30:25,040
distinction between yourself and the

5635
03:30:30,070 --> 03:30:27,920
outside right it's a basic

5636
03:30:32,309 --> 03:30:30,080
it's a basic

5637
03:30:34,630 --> 03:30:32,319
category in our think about valid so

5638
03:30:36,309 --> 03:30:34,640
there's me in the rest me it's me and

5639
03:30:39,110 --> 03:30:36,319
the rest is rest

5640
03:30:41,429 --> 03:30:39,120
and this is something which uh

5641
03:30:43,030 --> 03:30:41,439
it was very clear in my experiences is

5642
03:30:45,830 --> 03:30:43,040
common in many reports of this

5643
03:30:48,309 --> 03:30:45,840
experience is that you use

5644
03:30:50,309 --> 03:30:48,319
the sense of you as a self separate

5645
03:30:52,070 --> 03:30:50,319
distinct from um

5646
03:30:54,469 --> 03:30:52,080
from the rest it's very strong it's very

5647
03:30:57,349 --> 03:30:54,479
physical the lsd experience is a very

5648
03:31:00,309 --> 03:30:57,359
uh it's it's a very

5649
03:31:03,110 --> 03:31:00,319
powerful thing in fact i remember

5650
03:31:05,670 --> 03:31:03,120
spending days and days after that

5651
03:31:07,349 --> 03:31:05,680
sort of under the shock it was not bad

5652
03:31:09,190 --> 03:31:07,359
but it was also

5653
03:31:10,870 --> 03:31:09,200
disturbing tiring

5654
03:31:12,550 --> 03:31:10,880
i mean my mind had kept going back to

5655
03:31:14,389 --> 03:31:12,560
that for what has happened that means oh

5656
03:31:16,150 --> 03:31:14,399
my god what what has happened where am i

5657
03:31:17,590 --> 03:31:16,160
who am i what is

5658
03:31:19,269 --> 03:31:17,600
um

5659
03:31:22,229 --> 03:31:19,279
not unpleasant for me it was never been

5660
03:31:24,710 --> 03:31:22,239
unpleasant it has always been pleasant

5661
03:31:29,750 --> 03:31:24,720
uh very pleasant extremely pleasant i

5662
03:31:32,070 --> 03:31:29,760
had a i i faced it without preparation

5663
03:31:34,070 --> 03:31:32,080
but my friend was with me who had no

5664
03:31:36,070 --> 03:31:34,080
preparation and no

5665
03:31:37,990 --> 03:31:36,080
experience either

5666
03:31:42,229 --> 03:31:38,000
actually said the right thing at the

5667
03:31:45,670 --> 03:31:43,830
the right thing being don't be scared

5668
03:31:48,870 --> 03:31:45,680
whatever happens don't worry just let it

5669
03:31:50,710 --> 03:31:48,880
go and uh just don't resist

5670
03:31:51,670 --> 03:31:50,720
and just be aware that then you come

5671
03:31:55,190 --> 03:31:51,680
back and

5672
03:31:56,469 --> 03:31:55,200
whatever happens you back yourself so

5673
03:31:58,229 --> 03:31:56,479
um

5674
03:31:59,510 --> 03:31:58,239
that's very assured because he said

5675
03:32:01,590 --> 03:31:59,520
exactly right i think the moment in

5676
03:32:04,630 --> 03:32:01,600
which i got scared i remembered that and

5677
03:32:07,349 --> 03:32:04,640
said okay i'll trust him let things go

5678
03:32:08,710 --> 03:32:07,359
and let this strange experience go over

5679
03:32:12,309 --> 03:32:08,720
you

5680
03:32:18,070 --> 03:32:14,710
i loved it it stayed with me and somehow

5681
03:32:21,510 --> 03:32:18,080
in the moment in which i am in deep

5682
03:32:23,590 --> 03:32:21,520
which we all go through in our life

5683
03:32:26,550 --> 03:32:23,600
i remember that moment there is it's

5684
03:32:28,229 --> 03:32:26,560
it's calming to me it says good luck i

5685
03:32:29,910 --> 03:32:28,239
look at my hands the way i looked at my

5686
03:32:31,670 --> 03:32:29,920
hands in that and i

5687
03:32:34,150 --> 03:32:31,680
i have a sense of

5688
03:32:36,070 --> 03:32:34,160
separation from reality and

5689
03:32:37,910 --> 03:32:36,080
and the beauty of reality they start the

5690
03:32:39,190 --> 03:32:37,920
beauty of reality in front of me just

5691
03:32:40,150 --> 03:32:39,200
how it is

5692
03:32:42,389 --> 03:32:40,160
um

5693
03:32:43,990 --> 03:32:42,399
which i

5694
03:32:46,790 --> 03:32:44,000
remember as a gift of that particular

5695
03:32:49,349 --> 03:32:46,800
moment that stays with me all my life

5696
03:32:53,590 --> 03:32:49,359
was it a moment of utter peace or

5697
03:32:57,190 --> 03:32:55,190
like what was what would be the word

5698
03:32:58,790 --> 03:32:57,200
that you would characterize it

5699
03:33:00,229 --> 03:32:58,800
these people would say positive but

5700
03:33:04,550 --> 03:33:00,239
there's so many different senses of the

5701
03:33:08,229 --> 03:33:06,309
no we're not called peace we're not

5702
03:33:11,190 --> 03:33:08,239
called serene

5703
03:33:12,710 --> 03:33:11,200
i was not called euphoria

5704
03:33:15,590 --> 03:33:12,720
either

5705
03:33:18,070 --> 03:33:15,600
um i don't know emotionally

5706
03:33:21,269 --> 03:33:18,080
it was uh

5707
03:33:23,910 --> 03:33:21,279
completely overwhelming

5708
03:33:25,910 --> 03:33:23,920
surprise

5709
03:33:27,510 --> 03:33:25,920
and a sense of

5710
03:33:29,590 --> 03:33:27,520
violent

5711
03:33:32,469 --> 03:33:29,600
almost joy at some moment

5712
03:33:34,150 --> 03:33:32,479
oh wow i feel overwhelmed by the beauty

5713
03:33:36,550 --> 03:33:34,160
of things

5714
03:33:37,910 --> 03:33:36,560
and like seeing things for the first

5715
03:33:39,830 --> 03:33:37,920
time it's a

5716
03:33:41,830 --> 03:33:39,840
strange thing like like if i was oh my

5717
03:33:45,510 --> 03:33:41,840
god i've never seen that but this is

5718
03:33:46,550 --> 03:33:45,520
just you know my hand or a tree believe

5719
03:33:47,429 --> 03:33:46,560
anything

5720
03:33:49,349 --> 03:33:47,439
um

5721
03:33:51,030 --> 03:33:49,359
and by overwhelmed by the beauty of it

5722
03:33:53,429 --> 03:33:51,040
and be aware that you know this is just

5723
03:33:55,190 --> 03:33:53,439
a leaf and that's i could look at it as

5724
03:33:57,030 --> 03:33:55,200
an incredibly beautiful thing it's just

5725
03:33:58,950 --> 03:33:57,040
me and that's my heart opening up and

5726
03:34:01,429 --> 03:33:58,960
just exploding but

5727
03:34:04,070 --> 03:34:01,439
it's notoriously hard to describe those

5728
03:34:06,550 --> 03:34:04,080
experiences everybody says so and now

5729
03:34:08,630 --> 03:34:06,560
there is a growing literature

5730
03:34:11,110 --> 03:34:08,640
because finally

5731
03:34:13,590 --> 03:34:11,120
scientists can study these substances

5732
03:34:16,229 --> 03:34:13,600
after it was forbidden to study this

5733
03:34:17,990 --> 03:34:16,239
science substances for 40 years it's

5734
03:34:20,950 --> 03:34:18,000
completely stupid because why should you

5735
03:34:22,150 --> 03:34:20,960
know people study poisons or you know

5736
03:34:25,030 --> 03:34:22,160
heroin

5737
03:34:27,110 --> 03:34:25,040
why shouldn't you study this sciences

5738
03:34:30,550 --> 03:34:27,120
um

5739
03:34:33,110 --> 03:34:30,560
so i hope that now the very body

5740
03:34:34,550 --> 03:34:33,120
take away this silly

5741
03:34:36,070 --> 03:34:34,560
yes yeah yeah

5742
03:34:38,229 --> 03:34:36,080
for beating

5743
03:34:39,830 --> 03:34:38,239
studying these things

5744
03:34:41,030 --> 03:34:39,840
so it didn't directly help you with

5745
03:34:42,710 --> 03:34:41,040
physics but it helped you with

5746
03:34:45,269 --> 03:34:42,720
entertaining ideas that other people

5747
03:34:47,110 --> 03:34:45,279
would consider unpalatable such as time

5748
03:34:48,870 --> 03:34:47,120
doesn't exist or so-and-so is relational

5749
03:34:49,990 --> 03:34:48,880
rather than real

5750
03:34:53,429 --> 03:34:50,000
exactly

5751
03:34:55,429 --> 03:34:53,439
lee smalling you need to give lee

5752
03:34:57,910 --> 03:34:55,439
smalling some lsd to dissuade him of his

5753
03:34:58,790 --> 03:34:57,920
ideas of the primacy

5754
03:35:01,110 --> 03:34:58,800
and that's what i'm going to read

5755
03:35:03,269 --> 03:35:01,120
between the lines okay

5756
03:35:05,110 --> 03:35:03,279
last two questions last two

5757
03:35:08,710 --> 03:35:05,120
go to do you know who

5758
03:35:10,630 --> 03:35:08,720
whitehead is alfred north whitehead

5759
03:35:13,269 --> 03:35:10,640
yeah okay so this question comes from

5760
03:35:15,510 --> 03:35:13,279
aaron haidari says ravelli seems to

5761
03:35:17,349 --> 03:35:15,520
reflect

5762
03:35:18,790 --> 03:35:17,359
a lot of the pen

5763
03:35:20,550 --> 03:35:18,800
theist

5764
03:35:23,110 --> 03:35:20,560
process philosophy that whitehead talks

5765
03:35:24,950 --> 03:35:23,120
about i wonder if he's familiar with

5766
03:35:27,110 --> 03:35:24,960
whitehead and what he

5767
03:35:28,150 --> 03:35:27,120
thinks of this more organic view of

5768
03:35:29,030 --> 03:35:28,160
reality

5769
03:35:30,630 --> 03:35:29,040
yeah

5770
03:35:32,550 --> 03:35:30,640
well um

5771
03:35:35,349 --> 03:35:32,560
i i got to know what had precisely

5772
03:35:38,229 --> 03:35:35,359
because other people already

5773
03:35:39,510 --> 03:35:38,239
pointed out similarities

5774
03:35:40,790 --> 03:35:39,520
especially

5775
03:35:43,429 --> 03:35:40,800
thinking

5776
03:35:45,590 --> 03:35:43,439
reality as a process

5777
03:35:46,790 --> 03:35:45,600
if not that entities

5778
03:35:48,630 --> 03:35:46,800
um

5779
03:35:50,550 --> 03:35:48,640
hint it is with property but

5780
03:35:52,630 --> 03:35:50,560
happening of things so

5781
03:35:54,870 --> 03:35:52,640
processes before things

5782
03:35:56,710 --> 03:35:54,880
um

5783
03:35:59,030 --> 03:35:56,720
definitely there is this resonance and

5784
03:36:00,710 --> 03:35:59,040
the similarity and i'm sure that's

5785
03:36:02,950 --> 03:36:00,720
you know my way of thinking might have

5786
03:36:04,630 --> 03:36:02,960
been affected by by him or by people who

5787
03:36:05,670 --> 03:36:04,640
were affected by him

5788
03:36:09,429 --> 03:36:05,680
um

5789
03:36:12,070 --> 03:36:09,439
so i read i i started reading

5790
03:36:14,150 --> 03:36:12,080
uh some of his books because of that

5791
03:36:15,590 --> 03:36:14,160
because people pointed out this

5792
03:36:17,750 --> 03:36:15,600
analogies

5793
03:36:19,750 --> 03:36:17,760
and i i saw the analogy so i saw the

5794
03:36:23,269 --> 03:36:19,760
similarities i try to get something

5795
03:36:24,550 --> 03:36:23,279
useful from it but there is a size

5796
03:36:26,150 --> 03:36:24,560
there is a

5797
03:36:27,269 --> 03:36:26,160
an aspect of it

5798
03:36:28,870 --> 03:36:27,279
which i don't

5799
03:36:31,190 --> 03:36:28,880
connect to

5800
03:36:37,030 --> 03:36:34,229
which is this more organic or even

5801
03:36:39,429 --> 03:36:37,040
spiritualist

5802
03:36:42,150 --> 03:36:39,439
right there's a somehow

5803
03:36:43,110 --> 03:36:42,160
the way he faces the problems i i

5804
03:36:45,349 --> 03:36:43,120
couldn't

5805
03:36:48,870 --> 03:36:45,359
in spite of definite uh

5806
03:36:50,469 --> 03:36:48,880
similarities in this main idea that we

5807
03:36:53,990 --> 03:36:50,479
we describe the world as a process but

5808
03:36:58,389 --> 03:36:56,630
but but i'm a deeply a physicist

5809
03:37:01,030 --> 03:36:58,399
um

5810
03:37:03,429 --> 03:37:01,040
a physicalist

5811
03:37:04,630 --> 03:37:03,439
but i think that the the the physical

5812
03:37:07,990 --> 03:37:04,640
description of the world that we have

5813
03:37:11,110 --> 03:37:08,000
now it's it's it's very good as it is um

5814
03:37:15,590 --> 03:37:12,710
uh

5815
03:37:16,950 --> 03:37:15,600
to be reinforced by

5816
03:37:18,950 --> 03:37:16,960
by other pieces it has to be better

5817
03:37:21,190 --> 03:37:18,960
understood perhaps

5818
03:37:23,110 --> 03:37:21,200
and and i try to read what we know about

5819
03:37:25,349 --> 03:37:23,120
the world at that level

5820
03:37:27,110 --> 03:37:25,359
um from the physics itself and i think

5821
03:37:29,030 --> 03:37:27,120
it's not contradictory with a higher

5822
03:37:31,030 --> 03:37:29,040
level description of the world

5823
03:37:33,510 --> 03:37:31,040
okay with the ones given by biology by

5824
03:37:34,790 --> 03:37:33,520
sociology by psychology by you know

5825
03:37:36,550 --> 03:37:34,800
everything i think there's a there's

5826
03:37:38,150 --> 03:37:36,560
coherence we don't understand many of

5827
03:37:40,710 --> 03:37:38,160
the intermediate steps

5828
03:37:43,590 --> 03:37:40,720
uh but there's clearance between these

5829
03:37:45,269 --> 03:37:43,600
different pictures of of of the world

5830
03:37:47,590 --> 03:37:45,279
well of course we need a higher level

5831
03:37:49,190 --> 03:37:47,600
ones because uh

5832
03:37:50,469 --> 03:37:49,200
because we cannot i cannot describe my

5833
03:37:52,710 --> 03:37:50,479
girlfriends who are using maxwell

5834
03:37:54,710 --> 03:37:52,720
equations that doesn't work

5835
03:37:57,110 --> 03:37:54,720
there's no contradiction between she

5836
03:37:59,190 --> 03:37:57,120
being made by atoms uh

5837
03:38:01,110 --> 03:37:59,200
governed by the maxwell equations

5838
03:38:03,110 --> 03:38:01,120
and you know she being somebody i love

5839
03:38:04,469 --> 03:38:03,120
and she loves me and we interact on the

5840
03:38:05,670 --> 03:38:04,479
level of our

5841
03:38:07,269 --> 03:38:05,680
emotions

5842
03:38:09,110 --> 03:38:07,279
uh they're just different different

5843
03:38:11,429 --> 03:38:09,120
levels of description some which works

5844
03:38:13,110 --> 03:38:11,439
better as some aggregate of things and

5845
03:38:14,229 --> 03:38:13,120
some which works better

5846
03:38:15,590 --> 03:38:14,239
um

5847
03:38:17,590 --> 03:38:15,600
and and

5848
03:38:20,070 --> 03:38:17,600
i don't see any a priori contradiction

5849
03:38:21,990 --> 03:38:20,080
between that and there's no need

5850
03:38:24,070 --> 03:38:22,000
to um

5851
03:38:27,349 --> 03:38:24,080
to add higher level notions to the

5852
03:38:29,030 --> 03:38:27,359
fundamental notions

5853
03:38:30,710 --> 03:38:29,040
when it comes to the problem of quantum

5854
03:38:32,630 --> 03:38:30,720
gravity or theories of everything or

5855
03:38:36,389 --> 03:38:32,640
grand unified theories do you think that

5856
03:38:38,469 --> 03:38:36,399
what's missing is a whole conceptual

5857
03:38:40,070 --> 03:38:38,479
paradigm shift or is it just it's a

5858
03:38:41,830 --> 03:38:40,080
mathematical complication it can be

5859
03:38:43,830 --> 03:38:41,840
solved

5860
03:38:45,429 --> 03:38:43,840
without changing our view of what

5861
03:38:46,550 --> 03:38:45,439
reality is much

5862
03:38:48,710 --> 03:38:46,560
like what do you think is holding us

5863
03:38:49,990 --> 03:38:48,720
back which one is it

5864
03:38:51,750 --> 03:38:50,000
i think it's there's nothing holding

5865
03:38:55,110 --> 03:38:51,760
back i think we have theories of quantum

5866
03:38:57,510 --> 03:38:55,120
gravity and that might be right um

5867
03:38:59,590 --> 03:38:57,520
so we don't need to go look for new

5868
03:39:01,750 --> 03:38:59,600
ideas in quantum gravity we have to we

5869
03:39:03,750 --> 03:39:01,760
go we have to go try to figure out if

5870
03:39:05,910 --> 03:39:03,760
the ideas we have a good or bad

5871
03:39:07,750 --> 03:39:05,920
um i think this idea that all quantum

5872
03:39:09,910 --> 03:39:07,760
gravity is such a mystery that we need

5873
03:39:12,790 --> 03:39:09,920
some new idea why do we need some new

5874
03:39:14,389 --> 03:39:12,800
idea i mean we have theories the reason

5875
03:39:15,910 --> 03:39:14,399
we're not sure is that we cannot test

5876
03:39:16,950 --> 03:39:15,920
them not because they're wrong or

5877
03:39:18,630 --> 03:39:16,960
they're bad

5878
03:39:20,070 --> 03:39:18,640
group point to gravity is one i don't

5879
03:39:21,349 --> 03:39:20,080
want to say this is the right theory

5880
03:39:22,950 --> 03:39:21,359
because it might be wrong theory might

5881
03:39:24,710 --> 03:39:22,960
another one may be right

5882
03:39:26,389 --> 03:39:24,720
or maybe we haven't yet you know

5883
03:39:28,550 --> 03:39:26,399
understood the relation between this or

5884
03:39:30,389 --> 03:39:28,560
maybe i mean i have the reasons to think

5885
03:39:33,030 --> 03:39:30,399
that string theory is not good it looks

5886
03:39:35,670 --> 03:39:33,040
going to gravity is good but

5887
03:39:38,710 --> 03:39:35,680
for quantum gravity itself we have

5888
03:39:40,550 --> 03:39:38,720
decent theories of the the missing staff

5889
03:39:41,510 --> 03:39:40,560
the piece pieces we don't understand

5890
03:39:43,830 --> 03:39:41,520
well

5891
03:39:46,150 --> 03:39:43,840
but i don't

5892
03:39:49,030 --> 03:39:46,160
share this idea oh my god we're missing

5893
03:39:51,510 --> 03:39:49,040
a big idea we're not missing a big idea

5894
03:39:53,030 --> 03:39:51,520
to articulate something like loop

5895
03:39:55,030 --> 03:39:53,040
quantum gravity you need a big

5896
03:39:57,349 --> 03:39:55,040
conceptual shift because there's no

5897
03:39:59,429 --> 03:39:57,359
background space no background time as i

5898
03:40:00,950 --> 03:39:59,439
said before you have to accept the idea

5899
03:40:03,110 --> 03:40:00,960
that the fundamental shift of the world

5900
03:40:05,830 --> 03:40:03,120
you don't use the time variable so it's

5901
03:40:08,790 --> 03:40:05,840
already there it has been worked out is

5902
03:40:10,389 --> 03:40:08,800
is decades of discussions

5903
03:40:12,710 --> 03:40:10,399
that have come out with a

5904
03:40:14,389 --> 03:40:12,720
a possible story

5905
03:40:16,229 --> 03:40:14,399
we have more than one possible stories

5906
03:40:18,389 --> 03:40:16,239
because there are other alter possible

5907
03:40:20,790 --> 03:40:18,399
alternatives is you know symptomatic

5908
03:40:21,990 --> 03:40:20,800
safety the string theory and

5909
03:40:23,910 --> 03:40:22,000
and others

5910
03:40:26,150 --> 03:40:23,920
uh but we have things about quantum

5911
03:40:28,550 --> 03:40:26,160
gravity what we miss

5912
03:40:30,150 --> 03:40:28,560
is you know filling up details

5913
03:40:31,750 --> 03:40:30,160
you know look what it's hard to do

5914
03:40:33,349 --> 03:40:31,760
calculation of scattering string

5915
03:40:35,269 --> 03:40:33,359
theories how to understand how to come

5916
03:40:36,710 --> 03:40:35,279
down four dimensions nobody really has

5917
03:40:38,950 --> 03:40:36,720
done it yet

5918
03:40:40,790 --> 03:40:38,960
uh the the you know the schemes ideas

5919
03:40:42,950 --> 03:40:40,800
but the body goes from the big theory

5920
03:40:44,389 --> 03:40:42,960
down to the to the standard model

5921
03:40:46,790 --> 03:40:44,399
um

5922
03:40:48,710 --> 03:40:46,800
i i would not look for other

5923
03:40:50,150 --> 03:40:48,720
why should we look for other ideas that

5924
03:40:54,070 --> 03:40:50,160
then we just you know put them in a

5925
03:40:57,510 --> 03:40:54,950
we need

5926
03:40:59,510 --> 03:40:57,520
smart ideas for checking those theories

5927
03:41:01,830 --> 03:40:59,520
and and that's what many people doing

5928
03:41:03,030 --> 03:41:01,840
working on black holes working on early

5929
03:41:05,030 --> 03:41:03,040
universe

5930
03:41:08,790 --> 03:41:05,040
trying to see if some of the theories we

5931
03:41:12,710 --> 03:41:10,229
just so you know that question was from

5932
03:41:14,389 --> 03:41:12,720
dong hyun yoon i just wanted to make

5933
03:41:16,950 --> 03:41:14,399
sure to say that and the last last

5934
03:41:18,870 --> 03:41:16,960
question is craig reed tcr i'd be

5935
03:41:21,670 --> 03:41:18,880
curious to know what he thinks of nema

5936
03:41:23,030 --> 03:41:21,680
arkani ahmed's amplitude and his lecture

5937
03:41:27,590 --> 03:41:23,040
on the end of space time i don't think

5938
03:41:32,389 --> 03:41:31,110
lima is great um it's a uh it's a

5939
03:41:34,630 --> 03:41:32,399
powerful thinker it's a great

5940
03:41:36,229 --> 03:41:34,640
mathematician i had

5941
03:41:38,710 --> 03:41:36,239
i remember a very good

5942
03:41:40,070 --> 03:41:38,720
afternoon in princeton talking with him

5943
03:41:41,269 --> 03:41:40,080
um

5944
03:41:43,910 --> 03:41:41,279
i

5945
03:41:46,150 --> 03:41:43,920
there's a book that just came out

5946
03:41:48,870 --> 03:41:46,160
um which is a

5947
03:41:49,830 --> 03:41:48,880
big thick book with interviews of people

5948
03:41:51,910 --> 03:41:49,840
in uh

5949
03:41:55,189 --> 03:41:51,920
quantum gravity

5950
03:41:57,750 --> 03:41:56,469
uh

5951
03:41:59,349 --> 03:41:57,760
i can just look it up if you give me a

5952
03:42:01,670 --> 03:41:59,359
keyword so i can tell the audience what

5953
03:42:03,950 --> 03:42:01,680
it is it is sitting here let me go get

5954
03:42:06,469 --> 03:42:03,960
it yeah great

5955
03:42:08,309 --> 03:42:06,479
conversations on quantum gravity

5956
03:42:13,349 --> 03:42:08,319
wonderful

5957
03:42:16,790 --> 03:42:13,359
edited by jacom armas a-r-m-a-s

5958
03:42:18,550 --> 03:42:16,800
and uh it's it's a big thick book um

5959
03:42:21,269 --> 03:42:18,560
of interviews

5960
03:42:25,189 --> 03:42:21,279
detailed interviews of uh

5961
03:42:27,110 --> 03:42:25,199
a large uh number of people um

5962
03:42:28,870 --> 03:42:27,120
doing quantum gravity it's a bit boring

5963
03:42:30,630 --> 03:42:28,880
because it's a big thing with everybody

5964
03:42:32,790 --> 03:42:30,640
you know same question so

5965
03:42:35,030 --> 03:42:32,800
to but i'm going systematically through

5966
03:42:36,469 --> 03:42:35,040
it and reading all of it

5967
03:42:37,830 --> 03:42:36,479
because i'm curious to actually know

5968
03:42:39,750 --> 03:42:37,840
what the various people and it's

5969
03:42:41,750 --> 03:42:39,760
remarkable they're very

5970
03:42:44,550 --> 03:42:41,760
diverse ideas

5971
03:42:48,229 --> 03:42:44,560
and i read uh the one of nina uh

5972
03:42:50,269 --> 03:42:48,239
academic uh in in detail of course um

5973
03:42:52,550 --> 03:42:50,279
because his alphabetical order

5974
03:42:55,510 --> 03:42:52,560
is the first

5975
03:42:56,870 --> 03:42:55,520
um i'm just almost halfway past halfway

5976
03:42:59,590 --> 03:42:56,880
through the book

5977
03:43:02,790 --> 03:42:59,600
and uh so i'm i'm thinking

5978
03:43:04,710 --> 03:43:02,800
while reading the various uh

5979
03:43:06,229 --> 03:43:04,720
people i'm curious to know what all the

5980
03:43:07,830 --> 03:43:06,239
people think i'm i'm reading and of

5981
03:43:09,910 --> 03:43:07,840
course i'm

5982
03:43:11,830 --> 03:43:09,920
i'm checking what they say with respect

5983
03:43:13,670 --> 03:43:11,840
to what i think and i'm trying to get

5984
03:43:15,670 --> 03:43:13,680
the ideas that i don't know and trying

5985
03:43:18,550 --> 03:43:15,680
to argue

5986
03:43:19,590 --> 03:43:18,560
so it's a very good exercise for me um

5987
03:43:24,630 --> 03:43:19,600
now

5988
03:43:28,790 --> 03:43:27,590
he belongs to um

5989
03:43:30,389 --> 03:43:28,800
that

5990
03:43:32,550 --> 03:43:30,399
uh

5991
03:43:36,389 --> 03:43:32,560
part of the community

5992
03:43:40,309 --> 03:43:36,399
who um has fell in love with the

5993
03:43:42,870 --> 03:43:40,319
maldecinna idea of the bulk boundary

5994
03:43:46,870 --> 03:43:42,880
and then later on has given

5995
03:43:49,269 --> 03:43:46,880
a sort of an ideological basis on that

5996
03:43:52,630 --> 03:43:49,279
by an argument

5997
03:43:55,349 --> 03:43:52,640
that says that in quantum gravity

5998
03:43:57,189 --> 03:43:55,359
we have to go to infinity

5999
03:43:58,870 --> 03:43:57,199
uh to

6000
03:44:01,349 --> 03:43:58,880
to define the theory

6001
03:44:03,670 --> 03:44:01,359
because there are physical reasons

6002
03:44:05,349 --> 03:44:03,680
for which we cannot make a measurement

6003
03:44:08,389 --> 03:44:05,359
in the bulk so to say

6004
03:44:10,389 --> 03:44:08,399
so all the actual measurements are uh

6005
03:44:12,710 --> 03:44:10,399
and uh in fact in the book he articulate

6006
03:44:14,710 --> 03:44:12,720
that because this is good because he

6007
03:44:17,189 --> 03:44:14,720
he explains his you know his deep

6008
03:44:18,950 --> 03:44:17,199
motivations for doing that

6009
03:44:21,030 --> 03:44:18,960
now i'm convinced that this argument is

6010
03:44:22,070 --> 03:44:21,040
wrong um

6011
03:44:25,269 --> 03:44:22,080
uh

6012
03:44:26,389 --> 03:44:25,279
because it presupposes the space-time

6013
03:44:28,710 --> 03:44:26,399
and uh

6014
03:44:30,630 --> 03:44:28,720
because uh it uh

6015
03:44:32,870 --> 03:44:30,640
it mixes

6016
03:44:35,510 --> 03:44:32,880
uh the need for the coherence for making

6017
03:44:37,910 --> 03:44:35,520
measurements with the distance in space

6018
03:44:41,510 --> 03:44:37,920
so they i think it's technically wrong

6019
03:44:44,790 --> 03:44:41,520
and but this is has become a dogma in in

6020
03:44:47,670 --> 03:44:44,800
his word especially in princeton um

6021
03:44:49,030 --> 03:44:47,680
that you can only describe things from

6022
03:44:51,429 --> 03:44:49,040
from a very large distance from a

6023
03:44:54,630 --> 03:44:51,439
syntactic distance

6024
03:44:56,790 --> 03:44:54,640
so he's going entirely in that direction

6025
03:44:58,790 --> 03:44:56,800
and that's why he doesn't

6026
03:45:00,790 --> 03:44:58,800
think that loop quantum gravity might

6027
03:45:01,910 --> 03:45:00,800
work because loop control it is a

6028
03:45:04,469 --> 03:45:01,920
description

6029
03:45:06,710 --> 03:45:04,479
of quantum space time locally in in a

6030
03:45:08,710 --> 03:45:06,720
small region so i'm i'm here

6031
03:45:10,870 --> 03:45:08,720
i i make an experiment a quantum

6032
03:45:12,469 --> 03:45:10,880
experiment and i compute what comes out

6033
03:45:13,750 --> 03:45:12,479
without need to go to

6034
03:45:16,070 --> 03:45:13,760
centopia

6035
03:45:19,830 --> 03:45:17,750
so uh

6036
03:45:22,870 --> 03:45:19,840
you know these people are going doing

6037
03:45:26,229 --> 03:45:22,880
technical work but that's the assumption

6038
03:45:27,110 --> 03:45:26,239
uh on which also his work on the on the

6039
03:45:29,830 --> 03:45:27,120
um

6040
03:45:31,830 --> 03:45:29,840
scattering amplitudes

6041
03:45:34,389 --> 03:45:31,840
it's good but it's not

6042
03:45:37,990 --> 03:45:34,399
it's not in the four-dimensional

6043
03:45:40,389 --> 03:45:38,000
generativistic world in which we live so

6044
03:45:42,309 --> 03:45:40,399
uh i i don't think that the solution of

6045
03:45:46,229 --> 03:45:42,319
quantum gravity and the property of

6046
03:45:47,590 --> 03:45:46,239
quantum gravity is in fancy mathematics

6047
03:45:49,910 --> 03:45:47,600
um

6048
03:45:51,830 --> 03:45:49,920
i think it's in just writing the things

6049
03:45:53,830 --> 03:45:51,840
properly i mean there's a look on the

6050
03:45:56,469 --> 03:45:53,840
guide it defines scattering amplitudes

6051
03:45:58,950 --> 03:45:56,479
they're very hard to compute

6052
03:46:00,229 --> 03:45:58,960
but they're there

6053
03:46:03,110 --> 03:46:00,239
and

6054
03:46:05,189 --> 03:46:03,120
does that without going to the boundary

6055
03:46:06,150 --> 03:46:05,199
inside space-time

6056
03:46:08,070 --> 03:46:06,160
and the

6057
03:46:10,150 --> 03:46:08,080
objection here has to look into gravity

6058
03:46:11,750 --> 03:46:10,160
i think they're they're wrong i wish we

6059
03:46:13,590 --> 03:46:11,760
could uh you know with all these people

6060
03:46:14,870 --> 03:46:13,600
i wish we could sit down

6061
03:46:16,389 --> 03:46:14,880
and uh

6062
03:46:17,910 --> 03:46:16,399
maybe i'm arrogant but i think i could

6063
03:46:19,429 --> 03:46:17,920
convince them the sum of the assumptions

6064
03:46:21,750 --> 03:46:19,439
that they are wrong

6065
03:46:23,830 --> 03:46:21,760
of course almond center i may have

6066
03:46:27,110 --> 03:46:23,840
are wrong and i wish they could tell me

6067
03:46:29,590 --> 03:46:28,389
carlo

6068
03:46:31,110 --> 03:46:29,600
professor

6069
03:46:33,110 --> 03:46:31,120
thank you so much

6070
03:46:35,269 --> 03:46:33,120
it's been quite a good

6071
03:46:37,189 --> 03:46:35,279
quite a journey for over four hours been

6072
03:46:38,870 --> 03:46:37,199
long quite a journey you pushed me to

6073
03:46:40,790 --> 03:46:38,880
say a lot of ideas

6074
03:46:42,790 --> 03:46:40,800
into a lot of the things i've been

6075
03:46:45,510 --> 03:46:42,800
thinking so i liked i liked very much i

6076
03:46:47,429 --> 03:46:45,520
loved this interview

6077
03:46:49,189 --> 03:46:47,439
the podcast is now finished if you'd

6078
03:46:52,309 --> 03:46:49,199
like to support conversations like this

6079
03:46:55,229 --> 03:46:52,319
then do consider going to patreon.com

6080
03:47:00,070 --> 03:46:58,309
j-a-i-m-u-n-g-a-l that is kurt jaimungle

6081
03:47:01,670 --> 03:47:00,080
it's support from the patrons and from

6082
03:47:03,269 --> 03:47:01,680
the sponsors that allow me to do this